REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Sean

since football serves over 3 times as many student athletes, and I'd be willing to bet it also serves at least 10 times as many students/alumni who attend and follow games
women's hockey is the bigger drain

make that was, it is over

 

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

The numbers do account for the human impacts. I previously showed how cutting other sports at UND would've impacted far more student-athletes.

And that's where you lose me. The numbers substantiate that this was one of (potentially a few) paths possible to solve a financial dilemma.

The human impact is the toll the decision has taken on those directly affected. The human impact of the decision is a junior having to decide if she hangs up her skates and pockets the scholarship or tried to land spot somewhere else. It's the senior crying herself to sleep because her last year (which she has been looking forward to from day 1) is being taken away from her.
That's the human impact, what you're talking about is a business decision.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

exactly, UND administration cut WH to minimize the number of students crying themselves to sleep.

Isn't part of the purpose of participating in sports to teach life's lessons? I understand some of you find keeping score ghastly, but a game and a season is life in miniature, it's all pretend, nobody dies, everyone gets a do over, how you react to failure and loss ...

 

[cF[Authentic]]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Sean

That is where the Champions Club donations come into play. The six best non-students sections all require a Champions Club membership to buy season tickets for football. The lowest donation is $200 which gets you 4 seats in the outer sections. The lowest donation for the center section is $3,750 for up to 12 tickets. $7,500 and up gets you 16 tickets. Those numbers are in addition to the ticket prices which were raised during the offseason to $95 and $80 depending on section.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Again, in UND's reporting methodology, only direct ticket sales are reported on the NCAA reports as ticket revenues. It doesn't not include required Champions Club "donations" to purchase season tickets. Those donations are listed under "unallocated". Add those in and numbers look better. (And I plainly admit "better", not great.)

And, as a people impact, with a 100 person roster, FB loses nominally $27k per participant (the $2.7M number), versus WIH losing $76k per participant (using 25 skaters and the $1.9M number).

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

... letting his peepee do his thinking ...

The mentality you refer to, I prefer to think of it more as thinking as a big, swingin' "richard" (peepee is so second grade) mindset.

Now, if I, or anyone for that matter, was using that mindset they'd be saying with much bravado:

Ain't nothin' need be cut or gonna be cut 'cause we ain't got no problems. We're just fine. Matter of fact, we're untouchable. And the money'll come back because it just will. And because we exist our existence is forever justified no matter the cost to anyone else. We stand alone on our own merit just because and nobody can tell us otherwise. If you think you can touch us you're a rube because you just don't get it. Now get the hell out of here because we don't care about facts or fancy-schmancy economics or budgets. That's not important. We like what we have so we're gonna keep it and anybody who tells us otherwise is flat wrong because we say so. So get the hell out of here. < spit chewing tobacco here >

That would be thinking with (your word) your "peepee".

Instead, I'm looking at sad facts and understanding how decisions were made.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

The human impact of the decision is a junior having to decide if she hangs up her < equipment > and pockets the scholarship or tried to land spot somewhere else. It's the senior crying herself to sleep because her last year (which she has been looking forward to from day 1) is being taken away from her.

I took out skates for < equipment > so you may replace it with:

- outfielder's glove
- sprinter's spikes
- golf clubs
- distance runner's shoes
- swim cap
- soccer goalie gloves
- tennis racket

as those work the same way in your example.

The issue is how many are impacted.

 

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I took out skates for < equipment > so you may replace it with:

- outfielder's glove
- sprinter's spikes
- golf clubs
- distance runner's shoes
- swim cap
- soccer goalie gloves
- tennis racket

as those work the same way in your example.

The issue is how many are impacted.

Completely agree, but since this is a WIH forum and it was the WIH team that was cut, you have to expect that will be the topic of conversation. I'm guessing that somewhere there is a forum with folks agonizing over the men's and women's swim and dive teams. Is your answer to them to just get over it as well?

Making the decisions without feeling for the individuals impacted is easy. I'm not saying that there wasn't a significant budgetary shortfall that needed to be addressed. I also understand that someone clearly felt this was the least painful way to get there. We can agree or disagree, but to treat this in a cold, calculating and callous way like you seem to do is what's rubbing folks the wrong way on this forum.

This is a women's hockey forum, many of us have daughters that play or have played. Some may be players/ex-players themselves. To come on here and say: get over it, it's not the end of the world is arrogant and close minded. If the folks on this forum didn't react with empathy and sympathy, then I would be concerned.

Everyone agrees with the math, but what you don't get is that it's about much more than the math. I've come to the conclusion that your tone isn't "flat" like you mentioned, it really is condescending. Feel free to enjoy your superiority complex, I'm done replying to you on this issue.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Is your answer to them to just get over it as well?

To baseball (29), to men's swimming and diving (22), women's swimming and diving (35), women's ice hockey (25), and soon men's golf (7), unfortunately, yes. That's all there is.

My tone is flat. Why? There's no point to being emotional over what have become coldly factual matters. I'm resigned to a university, a state, budget that's getting slashed through the bone. And yes, I'll admit it feels rather cold.

And before you claim "I just don't get it", there are two people in my house and both of us have lost jobs in the last 12 months due to the same factors (state economy and budgets). Maybe that shades my view as well: accept cold reality and move on with life.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Again, in UND's reporting methodology, only direct ticket sales are reported on the NCAA reports as ticket revenues. It doesn't not include required Champions Club "donations" to purchase season tickets. Those donations are listed under "unallocated". Add those in and numbers look better. (And I plainly admit "better", not great.)

And, as a people impact, with a 100 person roster, FB loses nominally $27k per participant (the $2.7M number), versus WIH losing $76k per participant (using 25 skaters and the $1.9M number).

Still, I think it highly unlikely UND will ever be known as a football school, but it is known as a hockey school, so dropping football, which loses more money overall, could be considered the smarter choice. And the school probably could have kept men's and women's swimming and diving and maybe men's golf as well. As for how much money football brings in through the Champions Club, I don't see how it can be that much. Total non-sports specific contributions for 2016 were $3.075 million, which appears to be mostly from men's hockey Champions Club donations from what I have read.

That said, I have previously suggested women's volley could have been cut as it impacted fewer athletes. That coupled with the school dropping full COA, which I read was estimated to cost the school $731 thousand a year once fully implemented, would save a total of $1.6 million per year. And, as budget cuts should have been on the athletic department's radar when they decided to offer full COA it leaves open the question why they did so.

Sean

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Still, I think it highly unlikely UND will ever be known as a football school, but it is known as a hockey school, so dropping football, which loses more money overall, could be considered the smarter choice. And the school probably could have kept men's and women's swimming and diving and maybe men's golf as well. As for how much money football brings in through the Champions Club, I don't see how it can be that much. Total non-sports specific contributions for 2016 were $3.075 million, which appears to be mostly from men's hockey Champions Club donations from what I have read.

That said, I have previously suggested women's volley could have been cut as it impacted fewer athletes. That coupled with the school dropping full COA, which I read was estimated to cost the school $731 thousand a year once fully implemented, would save a total of $1.6 million per year. And, as budget cuts should have been on the athletic department's radar when they decided to offer full COA it leaves open the question why they did so.

Volleyball is a required sport (Big Sky or Summit). UND S&D had been a WAC affiliate.

Our regional neighbors (peers, NDSU and the SD schools) offer FCOA across the board; you must as well or you'll lose recruiting battles.

UND is a hockey school, but the last decade and a half shows it's a men's hockey school. Look at the UND posting board (where I'm a moderator). The "ending hockey thread" is larger (by posts) than the next 11 threads in the women's hockey forum. And that list of 11 includes no fewer than 3 full "season" threads.

Football remains the regional sport of choice in the upper Midwest. It's what gets the attention and headlines. And it's backers are some of the largest UND donors (athletics or non-athletics). Football is the fall draw, Homecoming, to get folks to campus and do what universities do best (beg for bucks, mooch for moolah).

Someone'd mentioned hearing little from Brad Berry. I find it interesting that the Engelstad Arena folks have not chimed it. If losing UND WIH was a concern to them surely we'd have heard by now.

The western schools that offer women's hockey seem to now fall into two categories:

• B1Gs with budgets so large that losing a couple million on WIH is a rounding error (UMn, UWi, OSU)
• DIIs (e.g. Northern Sun teams UMD, MSU-Mankato, SCSU, and Bemidji State) playing up (so the rest of the budget is quite mild and manageable)

 

[Pens4]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Someone'd mentioned hearing little from Brad Berry. I find it interesting that the Engelstad Arena folks have not chimed it. If losing UND WIH was a concern to them surely we'd have heard by now.

The Engelstad Foundation was contacted directly and wanted nothing to do with the issue. Pure speculation but I would suspect that UND had made arrangements to replace the $400,000 of lost revenue created by evicting one of their tenants. Maybe they will book Eric Church for every MIH away weekend.

 

[Pens4]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

UND is a hockey school, but the last decade and a half shows it's a men's hockey school. Look at the UND posting board (where I'm a moderator). The "ending hockey thread" is larger (by posts) than the next 11 threads in the women's hockey forum. And that list of 11 includes no fewer than 3 full "season" threads.

National relevance and an NCAA appearance is in the first 15 years of an evolving sport isn't bad. The men's program has been around for 70 years. What impact would there have been on the school and the history of hockey if they had cut that program prior to their 1st national championship? Which was either after 13 years or 17 years if you count the first UND teams. It would have greatly impacted me as my high school coach Sonny Roberge played on the 1962 championship team and my college coach Bill Selman played and coach @ UND. I wouldn't even attempt to count the number of UND alumni teammates I had over the years. I remember in 92' we played an exhibition game at the Barn vs. the Jets and there 12 UND alumni in that game. All that history would have been erased if that Men's team had as short a leash as the women.

There are a lot of similarities during the incumbency of the two programs. Both had competitive teams in a league that housed the national powerhouses at the time; Minnesota, Denver, Tech, U of M, MSU. They both were a logical choice for the western Canadian recruits and both have a historical rivalry with Minnesota. And today like the 60's, the only possible reason to go to UND was for hockey. A very disappointing period of history for a university that has been a pioneer in college hockey.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

The Engelstad Foundation was contacted directly and wanted nothing to do with the issue. Pure speculation but I would suspect that UND had made arrangements to replace the $400,000 of lost revenue created by evicting one of their tenants. Maybe they will book Eric Church for every MIH away weekend.

I'm not surprised REA went quiet. There are enough people who claim they run Grand Forks already so staying away from this seems wise for them.

I will not be surprised to see REA book more events into their facility now that there are more open weekends in the main arena.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

A very disappointing period of history for a university that has been a pioneer in college hockey.

Undeniably. Having to cut four (soon five) sports from a line-up of 21 because the state monies are just not there to continue the subsidies is painful, fiscally required, and disappointing.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Volleyball is a required sport (Big Sky or Summit). UND S&D had been a WAC affiliate.

According to several articles I found online (Inforum article, Grand Forks Herald article) this is only half true. The Summit League only requires that members sponsor men’s and women’s basketball, while offering at least five other sports the league sponsors.

Our regional neighbors (peers, NDSU and the SD schools) offer FCOA across the board; you must as well or you'll lose recruiting battles

Better to lose recruiting battles than having to cut sports programs in my opinion. Speaking of NDSU, how are they handling the budget crisis? Have they also cut sports programs?

Sean

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

The issue is how many are impacted.

Certainly this is a relevant factor. But arguing that this single variable dictates the outcome is unnecessary and misguided.

When a University strives for excellence, the number of students directly benefitted will usually be smaller -- when compared with programs designed more for the Average Joe or Average Jane.

If the only thing that matters is how many are impacted, then universities should drop their graduate programs and use the funds to improve undergraduate education. In fact, lots of schools do choose to make undergraduate education their sole mission. But a state's flagship research university would never make such a choice. I have to believe you'd agree that UND fits into that category. My point is that a school's core goals can override the bean counting.

So what are the core goals of UND Athletics? IMHO, excellence should be one of those goals. Within the Hockey world, the UND Men's program has achieved significance across North America, if not the globe. Many of us are arguing that the UND Women's Hockey program had the potential to achieve that same status. While I truly don't want to be disrespectful to the other sports involved, it's hard to see that potential in any of the other programs that might have been cut.

You seem to be arguing that the need is to be "regionally competitive" with NDSU and the South Dakota schools, across the largest number of sports, takes priority over the opportunity for international excellence. Naturally that's a choice that UND and the State of North Dakota have every right to make. Forgive us outsiders, but many of us on USCHO believe that you've made a mistake.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

According to several articles I found online (Inforum article, Grand Forks Herald article) this is only half true. The Summit League only requires that members sponsor men’s and women’s basketball, while offering at least five other sports the league sponsors.

Better to lose recruiting battles than having to cut sports programs in my opinion. Speaking of NDSU, how are they handling the budget crisis? Have they also cut sports programs?

If UND maintained WIH they'd still have to sponsor five Summit sports beyond M/W BB. Five, or six. When the budget is out of balance, five.

You have better chances at getting solid information about Kim Jung-Un's budget than NDSU's. They've made a lot of noise about how terrible the cuts from Bismarck are/will be, but they haven't rolled out their plans for when the 20% cut lands on their doorstep. The most recent hints about their athletics budget status is when they went to the students for a 35% fees increase earmarked for athletics that was shot down about a year ago. Source: https://brewonsouthu.wordpress.com/...no-to-student-fee-increase-for-athletic-dept/

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Certainly this is a relevant factor. But arguing that this single variable dictates the outcome is unnecessary and misguided.

I didn't; however, it was brought up so I responded.

The relevant factor, the factor, is that the state is cutting 20+% from budgets and the state mandates balanced budgets.

UND made a choice. They went with core sports (that just won Big Sky Championships this year in FB, MBB, WBB, and VB). They went with lower cost per athlete sports. They went with sports that have more local following and game attendance*. Was it the right choice? Time will answer that. Right now the numbers say it was.


*Yeah, I said it. UND draws more for a weeknight volleyball match than a Friday night WIH game.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

You have better chances at getting solid information about Kim Jung-Un's budget than NDSU's. They've made a lot of noise about how terrible the cuts from Bismarck are/will be, but they haven't rolled out their plans for when the 20% cut lands on their doorstep. The most recent hints about their athletics budget status is when they went to the students for a 35% fees increase earmarked for athletics that was shot down about a year ago. Source: https://brewonsouthu.wordpress.com/...no-to-student-fee-increase-for-athletic-dept/

Actually I found a Grand Forks Herald article written 2 and-a-half weeks later in which it was reported that NDSU would only face a $400 thousand/year budget shortfall due to the state funding cuts. The article also states that no sports would be cut to balance NDSU's $22 million athletic budget. That is far different from UND's response of cutting over $2 million and 3 sports from their $26 million budget.

Sean