REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

[ne7minder]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

The minute you resort to feeble attempts at condescension you've lost.

But, yes, Title IX is far more than scholarship numbers. That's why one hires BD to review everything before it's rolled out. BD makes sure what you're doing now is aligned, because you know the challenge will come.

And are you sure those numbers would be considered aligned given other factors, say, like in FY17 UND no longer sponsors baseball. UND had to do something after eliminating baseball. Participation numbers are misaligned.

And you don't know what I know.

A) The condescension was earned, enjoy it.
OR
B) It would be up to you to let us know what you know. Failing that go back to A

It is enlightening to note you have 11,000 comments on USCHO but none on the womens forum until a couple weeks ago. Overcompensating for something?

 

[pucko]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Why are we still arguing about this? As disappointing as it is, it's over, the team ain't coming back.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

It would be up to you to let us know what you know.

I did tell folks what I know and got disparaged for that, namely, UND was out of Title IX balance (against men) before cutting baseball in spring 2016. Cutting baseball made it worse.

I know the State mandated cuts to all budgets in the State.

I know that Baker Donelson was brought in to audit the moves before they were made to make sure when the real audit comes (US OCR) it goes smoothly.

I know that WIH was the most net expensive sport on campus per player.

I know that UND's plan is to re-invest a significant portion of the cuts back into Summit League sports as part of the move from the Big Sky to the Summit. That's why UND cut far more than the amount the state mandated.


I also know that an NAIA in the state (Dickinson State U) is looking at cutting at least two sports and shutting down a nursing program and an academic program. They're getting hit with a 30% funding chop; but that's only $8.8 million for that school. Yes, right now, in this state, $8.8 million is serious news in state and higher ed funding. UND cut about $3 million of red ink from just Athletics. Welcome to current North Dakota budgets.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

It is enlightening to note you have 11,000 comments on USCHO but none on the womens forum until a couple weeks ago. Overcompensating for something?

I got tired of reading this thread so full of emotions and half-truths so I knew it was time to bring some facts to the conversation.

Next, I didn't post in women's hockey because I didn't have much to say about it. I'll plainly state I went to few games. Why? I found the speed and skill comparable to ND East Region HS hockey at best. I could watch that without a nearly 200 mile round trip to a game.

And if anyone here is overcompensating I'd say it's the one continuing with the ad hominems.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Why are we still arguing about this? As disappointing as it is, it's over, the team ain't coming back.

Pucko's right. Montgomery Gentry can explain.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

This thread is the worst, Burr.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I got tired of reading this thread so full of emotions and half-truths so I knew it was time to bring some facts to the conversation.

Next, I didn't post in women's hockey because I didn't have much to say about it. I'll plainly state I went to few games. Why? I found the speed and skill comparable to ND East Region HS hockey at best. I could watch that without a nearly 200 mile round trip to a game.

.

you pretty much lost all credibility with this statement

now maybe if you pull your head out of your rear end and use your brain as gawd intended you could explain why you really didn't go to any games. If it's too tough for you, I'll help you out and make it multiple choice:
1) I like watching girls, but not covered up with hockey equipment
2) watching girls with more athletic ability then me makes me feel like less of a man
3) I go to athletic events to be seen, since few go, there's nobody to see me
4) I've never actually been to an NCAA women's hockey game
5) I'm banned from the Ralph for inappropriate behavior in the men's room
6) I've never actually been out of my mothers house since the six years it took me to complete high school

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

In person or on television, by direct observation, I found the speed and skill comparable to boys ND East Region HS hockey at best.

Don't believe me. Believe the women US Olympians:

Johnson, the American women’s coach, sought the same thing from Minnesota high school teams.

“When we play the boys’ teams, the speed of the game is quicker than other competition that we might have played,” Johnson said. “The strength of 17-, 18- and 19-year-olds is going to be a little bit stronger than what we see in practice. A lot of those little things that as a coach you like to see in a competitive atmosphere are there when you play a boys’ team.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/sports/olympics/25whockey.html

So, there it is: the Olympians seek out MN boys HS programs and find the speed of the game is quicker.
Ratchet down Olympic to NCAA and MN to ND boys HS and there it is.

And your attempts at ad hominem are lacking.

 

[KTDC]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

In person or on television, by direct observation, I found the speed and skill comparable to boys ND East Region HS hockey at best.

Don't believe me. Believe the women US Olympians:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/25/sports/olympics/25whockey.html

So, there it is: the Olympians seek out MN boys HS programs and find the speed of the game is quicker.
Ratchet down Olympic to NCAA and MN to ND boys HS and there it is.

And your attempts at ad hominem are lacking.

Boys/men are bigger and stronger and faster than girls/women. What is that, a news flash? Does somebody expect the women's national team to play the men's olympic team? What is the point of your remark?

No point other than a gratuitous shot at the kids that have already been embarrassed, humiliated and had their lives turned upside down by the University of North Dakota pulling the rug out from under them.

Women's hockey does not have surplus support. Wow, another news flash. I, and hopefully most of the posters here, think women's hockey deserves a spot of 35 or 40 teams in NCAA D1 and will defend the game. I'll say it again, I think women's hockey deserves a place in D1..cheaper isn't always better. Thank you to, and thank goodness for the schools that are saying 'yes' to women's hockey. I think it's a great sport and I like the kids that are playing and am glad they have a chance to play.

Real nice Act II of President Kennedy to mention how "women's hockey should never have been at UND". Hopefully he contacted all of the kids who played up there and gave their all and loved their team and their school and that he shared that little tidbit with them personally. A nice little extra twist of the knife and a nice little extra touch of humiliation!

Thanks Sicatoka (hahaha) for your careful correction of all the half-truths that were being posted here, and maybe at this point you can consider your work here done and take this opportunity to get lost!

 

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

In person or on television, by direct observation, I found the speed and skill comparable to boys ND East Region HS hockey at best.

so, you don't enjoy boys HS hockey either?

serious question, you sound like a solid supporter of UND men's hockey, do you support other UND sports? are you a fan of the NHL?
why do you draw the line between boys HS/women's college and men's college hockey, the former apparently is uninteresting, the latter sounds like you pay big bucks to watch

smart move to backtrack on your statement, I was going to say that your comment was more a measure of your knowledge of hockey, since you couldn't differentiate between two obviously different levels of hockey. Only somebody unfamilar with the game wouldn't be abble to detect a difference between girls HS and women's college hockey.

 

[thirdtime's . . .]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

This thread is the worst, Burr.

Yeah . . . or the best. The in-house sexist (the undergraduate writer as “princess”) vs. the interloper (the undergraduate writer as disingenuous and/or clueless). Some fans' psyches are even more puzzling than Title IX numbers.

 

[ne7minder]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I got tired of reading this thread so full of emotions and half-truths so I knew it was time to bring some facts to the conversation.

Next, I didn't post in women's hockey because I didn't have much to say about it. I'll plainly state I went to few games. Why? I found the speed and skill comparable to ND East Region HS hockey at best. I could watch that without a nearly 200 mile round trip to a game.

And if anyone here is overcompensating I'd say it's the one continuing with the ad hominems.

SO you have no interest in womens hockey until people post emotion stuff? Interesting, you *just happened* to drop by & check. Do you do that often or just this once? You might have more credibility if A) you knew what you were talking about or B) you were a regular here who had demonstrated a concern for the game. So crawl back under your bridge, you certainly earned your goat.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

If someone can show me a fiscally responsible balanced budget for the 2017-2019 state legislative biennium for UND to:

- add 13 scholarships to women's sports to meet the demands of the Summit League (UND leaving Big Sky in 2018 to save on travel costs* **)
- balance the M/W opportunities, be Title IX compliant, after cutting baseball* in spring 2016 (when that team was on the field playing a home game)
- balance M/W grants in aid, be Title IX complaint, while doing the above (adding 13 women's, dropping 5 men's)
- cut an additional $1.3 million out of the FY18 annual Athletics baseline budget (after chopping baseball and reallocating grants) and beyond per the funding cuts from the ND Legislature
- maintain the required sport sponsorship for Summit membership
- maintain 16 NCAA sports to remain NCAA DI qualified
- be balanced (no deficit spending, no pushing debt to future budgets)

I'd be happy to see it. (Notice all I put on the table is baseball is gone. Please start at the NCAA FY16 report from UND and reallocate from there.)

Please send copies to Mark Kennedy and Brian Faison at UND as well.


*per 2015-2017 state biennium budget cuts
**Summit is all bus travel; Big Sky is all air travel;

 

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

If someone can show me a fiscally responsible balanced budget for the 2017-2019 state legislative biennium for UND to:

- add 13 scholarships to women's sports to meet the demands of the Summit League (UND leaving Big Sky in 2018 to save on travel costs* **)
- balance the M/W opportunities, be Title IX compliant, after cutting baseball* in spring 2016 (when that team was on the field playing a home game)
- balance M/W grants in aid, be Title IX complaint, while doing the above (adding 13 women's, dropping 5 men's)
- cut an additional $1.3 million out of the FY18 annual Athletics baseline budget (after chopping baseball and reallocating grants) and beyond per the funding cuts from the ND Legislature
- maintain the required sport sponsorship for Summit membership
- maintain 16 NCAA sports to remain NCAA DI qualified
- be balanced (no deficit spending, no pushing debt to future budgets)

I'd be happy to see it. (Notice all I put on the table is baseball is gone. Please start at the NCAA FY16 report from UND and reallocate from there.)

Please send copies to Mark Kennedy and Brian Faison at UND as well.


*per 2015-2017 state biennium budget cuts
**Summit is all bus travel; Big Sky is all air travel;

I'd let it go, Sic. You made the same mistake I did a few weeks ago. I wandered into this curious little area on USCHO apparently reserved for the seventeen posters interested in only posting in women's hockey forums. Candidly, I had no idea it was so provincial, but discovered as much when I was told in no uncertain terms I was not welcome here.

 

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I'd let it go, Sic. You made the same mistake I did a few weeks ago. I wandered into this curious little area on USCHO apparently reserved for the seventeen posters interested in only posting in women's hockey forums. Candidly, I had no idea it was so provincial, but discovered as much when I was told in no uncertain terms I was not welcome here.

I can only speak for myself, but I welcome ideas and new posters (I've only been on here for a year myself!). I would imagine tempers run a little hot in any forum when you talk about cutting programs.....

 

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I can only speak for myself, but I welcome ideas and new posters (I've only been on here for a year myself!). I would imagine tempers run a little hot in any forum when you talk about cutting programs.....

I think that's fair, and candidly after I posted my remarks I regretted them slightly. But there were a couple of posters in this thread who basically took the position that since I did not post here regularly, my opinions were both unwelcome and without merit. That argument, I find, is typically made by posters who feel like they are losing the argument.

 

[Scott_TG]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think that's fair, and candidly after I posted my remarks I regretted them slightly. But there were a couple of posters in this thread who basically took the position that since I did not post here regularly, my opinions were both unwelcome and without merit. That argument, I find, is typically made by posters who feel like they are losing the argument.

I think it's less about it being reserved and more about being annoyed that people who have never expressed much interest in women's hockey on this forum before the UND Women's team got cut are coming on to the forum and demand people lamenting the loss of a program justify its past existence based on finances alone. It comes across as gloating about this loss of a program, and now those gloating are complaining people don't like them...

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think that's fair, and candidly after I posted my remarks I regretted them slightly. But there were a couple of posters in this thread who basically took the position that since I did not post here regularly, my opinions were both unwelcome and without merit. That argument, I find, is typically made by posters who feel like they are losing the argument.

And as I understand it when the women's program being cut was brought up on the UND men's thread the poster(s) were told to go here. If that is correct than it seems to go both ways.

Sean

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

**Summit is all bus travel; Big Sky is all air travel;

I did straight line distances between UND and all the Summit and Big Sky full members and well the Summit is indeed more compact it seems unlikely it is all bus travel. In fact 4 of the 9 Summit schools are further away from UND than the current closest Big Sky school. So, at least 4 of the Summit schools should be air travel.

Summit
Denver 692
Fort Wayne 753
IUPUI 781
North Dakota State 72
Nebraska Omaha 465
Oral Roberts 823
South Dakota 355
South Dakota State 250
Western Illinois 604

Big Sky
Idaho 821
Idaho State 935
Eastern Washington 763
Montana State 678
Northern Arizona 1,155
Northern Colorado 642
Portland State 1,219
Southern Utah 1,073
Weber State 866

Sean

 

[Pens4]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

If someone can show me a fiscally responsible balanced budget for the 2017-2019 state legislative biennium for UND to:

- add 13 scholarships to women's sports to meet the demands of the Summit League (UND leaving Big Sky in 2018 to save on travel costs* **)
- balance the M/W opportunities, be Title IX compliant, after cutting baseball* in spring 2016 (when that team was on the field playing a home game)
- balance M/W grants in aid, be Title IX complaint, while doing the above (adding 13 women's, dropping 5 men's)
- cut an additional $1.3 million out of the FY18 annual Athletics baseline budget (after chopping baseball and reallocating grants) and beyond per the funding cuts from the ND Legislature
- maintain the required sport sponsorship for Summit membership
- maintain 16 NCAA sports to remain NCAA DI qualified
- be balanced (no deficit spending, no pushing debt to future budgets)

I'd be happy to see it. (Notice all I put on the table is baseball is gone. Please start at the NCAA FY16 report from UND and reallocate from there.)

Please send copies to Mark Kennedy and Brian Faison at UND as well.


*per 2015-2017 state biennium budget cuts
**Summit is all bus travel; Big Sky is all air travel;

I think having a different perspective from someone like Sicatoka can add some value. He/she has obviously spent a lot of time researching this information and brings some numbers to light that are hard to ignore. It is inevitable that the discussion will go vitriolic when you go from stats & facts to observations of all things hockey.

As UND insider that has shared time with every athletic director and retained law firm for the past twenty years. I would like to get your thoughts on some of the pressures that might have led to this monumental decision to cut a hockey program at UND. You mention the champion club fee's generated $million's to unallocated revenues. As a result the MIH team accounting shows a $200,000+ loss. A conservative estimate of 4000 season ticket holders puts their unallocated revenue at $5m. That's in addition to the $3.7m in ticket sales. It obvious that MIH is the funding all the teams on campus.

Do you think that Faison & Kennedy would even think about cutting a sport that represents the identity of UND if they didn't first have the blessing or at least no objections from the Men's program? I've always liked Brad Berry as coach and a teammate but it sure seems like he threw the women's program under the bus without a fight or so much as professional tweet of sympathy to the women's staff and players. Even the MIH players that did come to the defense of their women counterparts were told to quickly remove their social media comments. Any thoughts?