REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

And as I understand it when the women's program being cut was brought up on the UND men's thread the poster(s) were told to go here. If that is correct than it seems to go both ways.

Sean

I'd forgotten about that, but I think you are right. But I generally agreed with that. There was a specific topic on UND cutting women's hockey, here in the women's threads, and I had no problem with requests that our posts be put here, rather than in the men's thread. That made sense to me.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think having a different perspective from someone like Sicatoka can add some value. He/she has obviously spent a lot of time researching this information and brings some numbers to light that are hard to ignore. It is inevitable that the discussion will go vitriolic when you go from stats & facts to observations of all things hockey.

As UND insider that has shared time with every athletic director and retained law firm for the past twenty years. I would like to get your thoughts on some of the pressures that might have led to this monumental decision to cut a hockey program at UND. You mention the champion club fee's generated $million's to unallocated revenues. As a result the MIH team accounting shows a $200,000+ loss. A conservative estimate of 4000 season ticket holders puts their unallocated revenue at $5m. That's in addition to the $3.7m in ticket sales. It obvious that MIH is the funding all the teams on campus.

Do you think that Faison & Kennedy would even think about cutting a sport that represents the identity of UND if they didn't first have the blessing or at least no objections from the Men's program? I've always liked Brad Berry as coach and a teammate but it sure seems like he threw the women's program under the bus without a fight or so much as professional tweet of sympathy to the women's staff and players. Even the MIH players that did come to the defense of their women counterparts were told to quickly remove their social media comments. Any thoughts?

I would be shocked if Berry was consulted on the fate of the women's program, but I have no inside information. The fact that there have not been any tweets or public comments from the men's side, other than a couple of player's tweets which were quickly silenced, doesn't surprise me in the least. I'm not sure we've heard any public statements from the men's program supporting the discontinuance of the women's program either. Regardless of the success of the men's program, Berry and his staff are employed by the University at the pleasure of the AD. I'm not sure many people would come out taking public shots at their bosses in a situation like this.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I'd let it go, Sic. You made the same mistake I did a few weeks ago. I wandered into this curious little area on USCHO apparently reserved for the seventeen posters interested in only posting in women's hockey forums. Candidly, I had no idea it was so provincial, but discovered as much when I was told in no uncertain terms I was not welcome here.

it's not, I prefer to think of it as boutique
the two that told you to leave don't represent everyone here, just 2/17ths of it, just like the protestors you see on TV, they make their demands, but who really cares what they think?
perhaps they should read Robert Pirsig's (who died yesterday) "Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance"
maybe they can add some Apollo to their Dionysus
I was hoping I'd get an answer to why you don't like women's hockey
maybe this athlete is more to your liking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XGIRLwcw4o&list=RD8XGIRLwcw4o#t=2
I suggest full screen and good audio

 

[Eeyore]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I'd let it go, Sic. You made the same mistake I did a few weeks ago. I wandered into this curious little area on USCHO apparently reserved for the seventeen posters interested in only posting in women's hockey forums. Candidly, I had no idea it was so provincial, but discovered as much when I was told in no uncertain terms I was not welcome here.

I'll give you an explanation. I don't remember your posts specifically, but Sicatoka did everything possible to antagonize people. He wandered in here to tell that we are wrong and here's how things really are. Those of us who only read the women's boards had no idea who he is, and he had no established credibility. This did not stop him from expecting that we would take everything he said as gospel.

In short, it was a textbook case of mansplainin', albeit directed at women's hockey fans rather than necessarily at women themselves. There was no attempt at dialogue, just an assumption that he was an Authority and we all needed to listen.

He compounded that by making two fundamental errors, both classics of the mansplainin' genre. The first is that a significant chunk of what he posted, claiming that it was the real story that we had all been ignoring, in fact just repeated things that Sean Pickett had already laid out in detail. He either didn't bother to read the thread in which he thought we all had it wrong, or his attitude is that it hasn't really been said until the Big Bad Men's Hockey Poster has said it.

The second is that he also has claimed to understand things that he clearly doesn't. He makes statements that UND is out of title IX compliance, to the disadvantage of men, relying upon a single stat. He doesn't seem understand that there are many more things that are involved in Title IX compliance, or even that the disparity he cites in scholarship rates is well within the bounds of what the Department of Education considers to be "substantially equal". When this is pointed out, by someone who may not be a lawyer but has actually gone to the Code of Federal Regulations and read the rules regarding Title IX and athletics, he just continues to make the same point over and over without addressing any of the fallacies pointed out.

In short, if Sicatoka doesn't want to be treated like a complete *******, he'd be well served to stop behaving like a complete *******.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

^ classic ladysplainin'

 

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I was hoping I'd get an answer to why you don't like women's hockey

I guess I'm not sure where this was drawn from. I've certainly never said I dislike women's hockey. In fact, I recently posted over at siouxsports.com an opinion that notwithstanding the financial drain on the University that many sports, not just women's hockey, cause, it would be better for the University as a whole if they could find a way to keep all of them. That drawing in students with diverse interests was part of the University experience.

But there was a lot of misinformation about UND, the numbers, etc..., floating about in this thread immediately after the announcement, and whether I am an avid follower of a particular sport at UND or not, I'm certainly going to come to the defense of the school when I see that occur.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

But there was a lot of misinformation about UND, the numbers, etc..., floating about in this thread immediately after the announcement, and whether I am an avid follower of a particular sport at UND or not, I'm certainly going to come to the defense of the school when I see that occur.

May I ask what misinformation? and what numbers? I know I questioned some of the numbers from the UND NCAA reports. Some of them were answered, but I am interested in knowing if all of them were addressed or not.

Sean

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I'll give you an explanation. I don't remember your posts specifically, but Sicatoka did everything possible to antagonize people. ... Those of us who only read the women's boards had no idea who he is, and he had no established credibility.

Antagonize?
I put out factual information that can checked, and with no ad hominem attacks.

My claims on Title IX come from people involved in the matter, people involved in the decisions leading to this one. This didn't happen overnight. But, here's another little insight from someone who "knows nothing" about Title IX: UND has some work to do as far as "facilities" for women's athletes now that WIH no longer uses REA. That's a detail to be worked out at this point. That said, the US OCR will come in and look at the gross statistics (participants and dollars) in first review, then opportunities and interests, and then get to those matters.

As for credibility, I believe one of the ad hominem's included a remark about my total posts on USCHO count and where they are mainly located. So, 11000 posts centered on UND MIH and I have no insights to UND Athletics. Surely you jest.

 

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Antagonize?
I put out factual information that can checked, and with no ad hominem attacks.

My claims on Title IX come from people involved in the matter, people involved in the decisions leading to this one. This didn't happen overnight. But, here's another little insight from someone who "knows nothing" about Title IX: UND has some work to do as far as "facilities" for women's athletes now that WIH no longer uses REA. That's a detail to be worked out at this point. That said, the US OCR will come in and look at the gross statistics (participants and dollars) in first review, then opportunities and interests, and then get to those matters.

As for credibility, I believe one of the ad hominem's included a remark about my total posts on USCHO count and where they are mainly located. So, 11000 posts centered on UND MIH and I have no insights to UND Athletics. Surely you jest.

Perhaps your information was factual, but the tone (I know, difficult to infer), certainly seems confrontational. Although not everyone on this forum may have an in depth knowledge of UND, there are many here that have been covering WIH for years, so perhaps a little respect and humility is called for on both sides.

By the way: quantity does not equal quality.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I would like to get your thoughts on some of the pressures that might have led to this monumental decision to cut a hockey program at UND.

I've always liked Brad Berry as coach and a teammate but it sure seems like he threw the women's program under the bus without a fight or so much as professional tweet of sympathy to the women's staff and players.

UND WIH has been known to those paying attention to the other side of college sports (budgets, media, conference moves) to be a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time. It was exasperated with the move of UND Athletics from DII to DI.

But, it was manageable during prosperous times (high oil and ag commodity prices and revenues flowing into state coffers): UND was getting so much state money thrown at it papering over $1.5 to $2 million losses in one program, WIH, could be tolerated.

Roll forward to now, when just about every line item in the 2017-2019 state, not university, state biennial budget is being slashed 20-30%, and the money to paper over the gap just is no longer there. The camel's back broke. Heck, honestly, it took baseball, men's swimming and diving, women's swimming and diving, and women's ice hockey. (And men's golf won't survive: they're falling far short of their funds raising goal to a self-sustaining endowment.)


At risk of mentioning UND MIH here, frankly, Bubs doesn't Tweet all that much. If Bubs has something to say he'll say it in person is my take on the man.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Perhaps your information was factual, but the tone (I know, difficult to infer), certainly seems confrontational. Although not everyone on this forum may have an in depth knowledge of UND, there are many here that have been covering WIH for years, so perhaps a little respect and humility is called for on both sides.

My tone? It's flat, but yes, I can be somewhat confrontational when I don't see all aspects of a complex issue being discussed.

When I realized how much and how deep had to be cut it was stunning, it hurt*, but I moved through the stages of grief to acceptance, to what I call "Joe Friday" or "Spock" mode. Just the facts. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. It sucks, but it is what it is.

As far as quantity, this is a multi-faceted issue. 140 characters don't suffice.


*This statement extends beyond Athletics to all of UND. There is a ton of talent taking early retirement buyout offers to help out. There are programs, majors, being shrunk or suspended or cut.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

May I ask what misinformation? and what numbers? I know I questioned some of the numbers from the UND NCAA reports. Some of them were answered, but I am interested in knowing if all of them were addressed or not.

Sean

I wasn't talking about your financial numbers Sean. They came later I know you were just doing the best you could with the info you had available.

What initially prompted me to post in this thread were some posts that talked about the number of male athletes who's sports were cut versus female athletes who's sports were cut; some claims that UND's student body was about 50/50 male to female, but athletics would now be out of whack with that number; and a post that UND couldn't cut women's hockey while keeping men's hockey because they were our only D1 sports.

 

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

My tone? It's flat, but yes, I can be somewhat confrontational when I don't see all aspects of a complex issue being discussed.

When I realized how much and how deep had to be cut it was stunning, it hurt*, but I moved through the stages of grief to acceptance, to what I call "Joe Friday" or "Spock" mode. Just the facts. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. It sucks, but it is what it is.

As far as quantity, this is a multi-faceted issue. 140 characters don't suffice.


*This statement extends beyond Athletics to all of UND. There is a ton of talent taking early retirement buyout offers to help out. There are programs, majors, being shrunk or suspended or cut.

Agree that this is too complex a situation for 140 characters. Might I suggest that when all the emotion is taken out of it, then we lose something. That's when decisions are made based purely on numbers on a page and not necessarily the human impact (not just talking about WIH....).

I welcome emotion creeping in to a conversation. what's happening at UND across the board is a horrible shame, certainly not trying to minimize that. But the key focus on this board is WIH, and the constituency here will inevitably focus on that and the human impact on the players, coaches as well as the larger community. you certainly can't fault a WIH board for focusing on WIH......

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Antagonize?
I put out factual information that can checked, and with no ad hominem attacks.

I think you antagonized the hominems on this thread when you took time to compare women's hockey unfavorably to boy's HS hockey. Nobody is going to argue that the speed of women's hockey is equal to men's, but a good women's game is as entertaining as any other competitive game.

You obviously watch men's collegiate hockey. But why would you, when the speed and the skill of that game is not up to NHL standards? Why would you watch a boy's HS game, when it is not as fast or as skilled as NCAA?

I grew up playing hockey, and I had season tickets to UM games during the Herb Brooks era, so I love men's hockey. However, I have grown to appreciate the women's game through years of watching my daughter play U8, U10, U12 and HS hockey. I appreciate the dedication and the skill of the players, and I know they want to win as badly as the boys.

If you want to avoid being attacked, then have some respect for the seventeen people who live here.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I wasn't talking about your financial numbers Sean. They came later I know you were just doing the best you could with the info you had available.

What initially prompted me to post in this thread were some posts that talked about the number of male athletes who's sports were cut versus female athletes who's sports were cut; some claims that UND's student body was about 50/50 male to female, but athletics would now be out of whack with that number; and a post that UND couldn't cut women's hockey while keeping men's hockey because they were our only D1 sports.

Thanks for your reply.

Sean

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Agree that this is too complex a situation for 140 characters. Might I suggest that when all the emotion is taken out of it, then we lose something. That's when decisions are made based purely on numbers on a page and not necessarily the human impact (not just talking about WIH....).

The numbers do account for the human impacts. I previously showed how cutting other sports at UND would've impacted far more student-athletes.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think you antagonized the hominems on this thread ...

If posing a differing point of view, backed by facts, with no ad hominem (shoot the messenger) thrown in, is antagonistic and not just debate, we're done as a society.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think you antagonized the hominems on this thread when you took time to compare women's hockey unfavorably to boy's HS hockey. Nobody is going to argue that the speed of women's hockey is equal to men's, but a good women's game is as entertaining as any other competitive game.

A great save is a great save at any level. A beautiful tick tack toe scoring play is beautiful at any level. Shooting the puck into a 5" x 3" slot above the shoulder blocker side is an awesome goal any way you cut it. A deft stick check to kill a scoring chance is a appreciated at any level. And let's not forget the fun you have at the games and the drama of the games. I know I've seen plenty of plays by a female in a game that a male would love to be able to do. I think Mr. Sicatoka is letting his peepee do his thinking. He must not be married or have a daughter unless they have been beat down into inferiority.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think Mr. Sicatoka is letting his peepee do his thinking. He must not be married or have a daughter unless they have been beat down into inferiority.

Again with ad hominem.

Find a solution, a workable budget, to save the team that my niece's UND roommates played on a few years back. I'm listening. I'm sure Mark Kennedy and Brian Faison will as well.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

UND WIH has been known to those paying attention to the other side of college sports (budgets, media, conference moves) to be a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time. It was exasperated with the move of UND Athletics from DII to DI.

But, it was manageable during prosperous times (high oil and ag commodity prices and revenues flowing into state coffers): UND was getting so much state money thrown at it papering over $1.5 to $2 million losses in one program, WIH, could be tolerated.

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Sean