POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Hovey's response was inadequate and completely failed to address the point. The point was none of the boards conservatives have the moral courage to say that the what the senate Rs are doing is wrong. Hovey simply confirmed that by giving them all a pass.

I don't think of the question as one in which there is a "right" answer or a "wrong" answer. Instead, the question for me, and everyone else, is what do I want my Senators to do?

Think of it this way. Let's say the Senate is debating a bill to require a license before you can own a gun. I don't think there is any "right" or "wrong" answer that will be reached by the Senate. It's a political decision. I may have a preference as to which way my Senators vote, and their vote might cause me to change my mind as to whether I support them in the next election, but whatever way they vote it isn't going to be "right" or "wrong."

In this case my two Senators (who both happen to be D's), will be asked to vote with the rest of them on the issue of impeachment, and perhaps other issues that come before the Senate on the topic. Will their votes on this topic impact whether I decide to vote for them again? No. But for others it might.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

None of this would be happening if Pelosi and the Dems didn’t impeach Trump. Of course she doesn’t get blamed at all.

If we didn't prosecute crimes think of all the money we'd save on courts.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

You think that’s what it’s about? It’s about someone’s paycheck and their take home. That’s it.

If you wanna know why Republicans win it’s because they have clean, simple answers to the questions that revolve around this:

“Why did take my home go up?” “We lowered your taxes.”
“Why did my take home go down?” “Democrats raised your taxes.”
“Where’d the money go?” “Freeloading blacks and illegal immigrants.”
“Why don’t I have a paycheck?” “Illegal immigrants and excessive regulations put in by the Democrats.”

Democrats rarely ever have clean answers to these. Mostly because the base is folks like Rover who can’t understand this and groups that are large in the Primary but tiny in the General that must be appeased.

This.... "Tax" is a dirty word to people with less than say 8 paychecks in savings at any given time. You may call them "dumb", but they do realize that without that paycheck, they are done. They know that they have to get all that they can out of that statement every two weeks. Many of them truly believe that they don't use any tax funded programs (SNAP, SS), but also don't realize that Medicare/Medicaid is tax funded (until they need it). So they view it as paying into something they will never claim.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

You people are wasting your time trying to debate tax rate levels. Nobody cares or votes because of it. Joe Dumbazz is going to hear that he's paying no taxes on his 75K, and then he's going to open his paycheck and see SoS/Medicare and state taxes being deducted and will then conclude that "Fukin Dems Lied to Me". You're thinking you can reason with people who don't want to be reasoned to. You can't, so stop trying. What does "wealth" mean? Your bank account, sure, but your house value? Car value? Kids college fund? Your 401K or pension?

Once you're explaining, you're losing.

 

[jerphisch]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

I don't think of the question as one in which there is a "right" answer or a "wrong" answer. Instead, the question for me, and everyone else, is what do I want my Senators to do?

Think of it this way. Let's say the Senate is debating a bill to require a license before you can own a gun. I don't think there is any "right" or "wrong" answer that will be reached by the Senate. It's a political decision. I may have a preference as to which way my Senators vote, and their vote might cause me to change my mind as to whether I support them in the next election, but whatever way they vote it isn't going to be "right" or "wrong."

In this case my two Senators (who both happen to be D's), will be asked to vote with the rest of them on the issue of impeachment, and perhaps other issues that come before the Senate on the topic. Will their votes on this topic impact whether I decide to vote for them again? No. But for others it might.

Again, you are daintily beating around the bush of implying that the "right" thing for Senators to do would be to vote the desires of their constituents. Polling suggests that they are ignoring their constituents when it comes to calling witnesses. So you're still coming down on the wrong side of your own position in order to defend them.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Once you're explaining, you're losing.

then come up with a better opening line. cause nazi ain't gonna get er done

 

[French Rage]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

None of this would be happening if Pelosi and the Dems didn’t impeach Trump. Of course she doesn’t get blamed at all.

Wow, it's impressive how you inadvertently prove their point.

 

[Rover]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

then come up with a better opening line. cause nazi ain't gonna get er done

Sure mookie. Pick your poison. I'll give you one example:

"Medicare should be extended from age 50 onwards. That's when people could really use it because layoffs happen a lot between this age and 65. I propose doing this and paying for it with an extra tax surcharge on anyone making over 1M a year."

So, what have I done here? First, I'm pitting the GOP voters against GOP donors. Older Americans are more likely to vote GOP. This policy would benefit them directly (amongst others) at the expense of millionaires. Let them tear each other apart over this. Next, instead of debating arcane tax policy and what income qualifies, I'm using a nice, shiny, whole number that everyone recognizes. One million bucks. Many people think they're in the top tax bracket because they don't understand it. Few people who aren't making 1M a year think that they are. Maybe the people in the 950-999K bracket have a right to be concerned but you can't please everyone.

Follow the same rules for anything else. Stop screwing around with brackets and start talking actual dollars.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Mondale noted this about Reagan and that worked really well.

(snip)

The American public is innumerate.

"Have I got mine? Yes? Good, then fck you and fck yours."

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Friend of mine who voted for Dump (smart guy, went to Penn, econ major and now an attorney, should have known better) is having a conniption fit on Dump reneging on his pledge not to get us deeper into the Forever War. Here's my response to him:

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dump is, in addition to textbook NPD, a classic authoritarian goober. Mango Mussolini loves troop parades and threatening state violence both externally and internally to cow the cuck media and win the love of people who have equated leadership with bullying since third grade. This was inevitable. The fact that you let yourself be deluded that he was some sort of Rothbardian pacifist who wouldn't deploy the troops because it violates the NAP has always been perverse.

Dump's support is based on:

1. The autonomic reflex of pulling the lever for R (80%)

2. People who want to give the establishment the finger who were too dim to understand that a fraudulent billionaire teevee personality who grifts a Potemkin image and delivers zero value is the very essence of the establishment (10%)

3. People so racist they couldn't even stomach McCain's black baby or Romney since Mormons are maybe the anti-Christ, and who recognized themselves in a guy who would repeal 13A if it picked up votes (10%)

If you want somebody to end the Forever War you've got Bernie and sweeeeeeeeeeeet f-ck all. The GOP is built on MIC gold. When Dems go to Bilderburg at least they sneak in. The GOP rides in on stallions blowing trumpets. They are hawkish in Aristotelian essence.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm hoping that he may vote D in 2020 for the first time since the 80s (he HATED the Clintons and then was third party during Cheney)

 

[SJHovey]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Again, you are daintily beating around the bush of implying that the "right" thing for Senators to do would be to vote the desires of their constituents. Polling suggests that they are ignoring their constituents when it comes to calling witnesses. So you're still coming down on the wrong side of your own position in order to defend them.

I'm not defending or supporting anything. If a poll says that 70% of the people want to hear from witnesses, I'm sure Senators are aware of that. To the extent they decline to vote in favor of witnesses, my guess is, a) they don't think that same percentage applies in their state, b) voters won't hold it against them if they don't vote for witnesses, or c) they're not up for election in the fall and figure it'll be a forgotten issue when they finally do come up for re-election.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

In my view impeachment is, was and always will be a political act. It's initiated by politicians, the President's fate is decided by politicians, and the actions of the House and Senate will ultimately be judged at the polls. That is why when 60% of the population said Nixon must go, with the number going steadily up, the politicians sent the signal they were prepared to act and Nixon could see the handwriting on the wall. Congress knew they would not be punished, in large part, at the polls in 1974 and 1976 if they got rid of Nixon.

I think the problem in today's world in terms of impeaching someone is that the sides have really entrenched with about 45% of the public supporting each side, and that the party fighting the impeachment is counting on not getting punished at the polls.

You're exactly right. What Trump did makes Nixon looks like a schoolboy whose crime was failing to rat out one of his friends for farting in church, but Republican voters don't care. The right-wing media bubble has spent 40 years whipping 30-35% of the country into a frenzy about guns, fetuses, taxes, and minorities, and they believe Dump is the last gasp before the next Democrat sends in the troops and marches them off to the gulag.

 

[rufus]

That's the way both parties should be and used to be. Until the Republicans figured out that they could get whatever they wanted by banding together on common causes each election. And those common causes only need be lip service. They need not ever be enacted or come to fruition.

My evidence? The Tea Party. The Tea Party failed at it's only policy goal yet it was an enormous success in getting Republicans exactly what they always wanted. Plutocracy.

The Tea Party was just a front for big corp wanting tax cuts. Nothing more.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

If we didn't prosecute crimes think of all the money we'd save on courts.

I’m not surprised hovey had a thoughtful response and drew farted out that.

Always trust drew to never blame republicans for what they’re responsible for

 

[rufus]

None of this would be happening if Pelosi and the Dems didn’t impeach Trump. Of course she doesn’t get blamed at all.

So we'll put you down as being ok with Democrat presidents blackmailing other countries to investigate their Republican opponents.

That is your stance, right?

 

[mookie1995]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Sure mookie. Pick your poison. I'll give you one example:

"Medicare should be extended from age 50 onwards. That's when people could really use it because layoffs happen a lot between this age and 65. I propose doing this and paying for it with an extra tax surcharge on anyone making over 1M a year."

socialism!!! limiting choice!!! what about me, i'm 40?!?! well i'm 20, what about me?!?!?

hope you have a job in the senate to fall back on there...

 

[leswp1]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

Exactly. Why do you think the DJIA is quoted every night and not the median income or the employment with benefits rate (the converse of which is the real unemployment rate)?

The corporate media identifies the economic health of the nation with what is good for, well, me -- people whose assets are investments and the housing market and who are unburdened by debt. This is a boom time for me! Many of the rest of you, well, probably not so much.

But how many Americans are $1k from bankruptcy at all times? 33%? 50%?

If we measured their economic health every night on network news we would have very different policies. The fact that we do not is not a coincidence. This is all part of manufacturing the consent of the cattle to be slaughtered.

Until Republicans can’t convince them of “at the end of the day my paycheck will be better under the Republicans. Dems will just raise taxes and my take home will go down.”

(I work with these people and for a good 2/3rds that’s all they care about)

This is the part I can't figure out. I know they message it but the avg joe is getting screwed up the ***. They are barely making it, have no health care and are on little thing away from ruin. On an intellectual level I get that people embrace their abuser- see it all the time in medicine- but to be able to do it collectively without people waking up, rejecting it and rebelling is mind boggling to me.

None of this would be happening if Pelosi and the Dems didn’t impeach Trump. Of course she doesn’t get blamed at all.

I am curious and hoping you will answer (and ignore the blast of nasty that will be an immediate knee jerk response).
-What do you think should have been the response to what came out? People argue it technically possible to ignore what was found in the impeachment trial because of process but do you unsee or unhear it? Past the 'winning' what next?

Looking at only what was found- looking past politics, posturing and claims of 'incorrect' procedure I wonder these things-
-what should happen in response to the action being ruled unlawful by the gov't agency?
-What should the response/spin be when dealing with allies who are seeing tacit approval of a President who is not following stated policy (no matter what the Senate decides this is how it is in the international press).
-How do you think they should respond to the diplomats and other career folk who have followed procedure in expressing concerns and experienced attacks on their character?
-Currently the Judiciary is not independent, it is functioning to support the Executive, rather than trying to determine the rule of law (if most of the legal minds are to be believed). The Executive is declared to have limitless powers- it has argued successfully they can deny oversight, refuse to answer requests from the House, nothing is impeachable. The Senate is actively stating it will do anything the Executive directs. The checks and balances set out in the Constitution need independent function to be successful. It is clear that is no longer. Is this OK? How do they (I don't listen to Fox but I am sure they will have an answer) explain this as proceeding. What procedure will keep any of them in check?

I cannot see the government as a functional entity if the 3 branches are not doing their job.

 

[rufus]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

The problem is, while the stupid and deplorable get hurt, and "take it in the shorts", there's a bunch of the rest of us getting hurt too.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

They don’t even know they’re making an idiotic decision because the laws are so convoluted only people like you and I can understand them. So you think the average joe knows the difference between a Roth IRA and traditional? The difference between a Roth 401(k) and Roth IRA?

Per Investopedia, 17.6% of Americans have a Roth IRA, and 11% have a Roth 401(k). Blue collared workers don't have them, people like you, Rover and Kepler have them. They're a non-starter in any debate unless it's between you, Kepler and Rover.

 

[Kepler]

Re: POTUS: It Can Happen Here Again

The problem is, while the stupid and deplorable get hurt, and "take it in the shorts", there's a bunch of the rest of us getting hurt too.

Right and that's what we need to do something about. My suggestions:

1. Lexit. Blues states withdraw from the US, write our own new constitution, repudiate the national debt.

2. Federalize. Put States Rights into overdrive. Murder the federal government, federalize economics and social policy, and then just build blue state liberal paradise. Put a wall on the border and only admit Hooters waitresses with a reasonable facsimile of ID.