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POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

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Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

rufus said:
Sure. But it's too complicated. Something simple, streamlined, and not so reliant on so many arcane structural, funding, and enrollment mechanisms would be cheaper, more efficient, and easier for those people to use. While the ACA has done a lot of good for a lot of people, it's also made them jump through a lot of hoops that makes it harder for them to use it. It doesn't need to be such a mess.


And it wouldn't be if they'd have just started with the liberal position, single-payer, and then just worked back to a compromise of Medicare for all.
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If Bernie is so persuasive, why has he never managed to get this to happen even though he's been in Congress since like 1987???

Could it be the votes weren't there, so they took what was achievable and moved the ball way downfield? Blame Lieberman if you'd like which is fine, but also recognize without him they didn't have the votes to overcome a filibuster. Sometimes math is hard I realize, but generally 59 and 60 are two different #'s. Important since 60 votes were needed to pass legislation given unified GOP opposition.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

rufus said:
Sure. But it's too complicated. Something simple, streamlined, and not so reliant on so many arcane structural, funding, and enrollment mechanisms would be cheaper, more efficient, and easier for those people to use. While the ACA has done a lot of good for a lot of people, it's also made them jump through a lot of hoops that makes it harder for them to use it. It doesn't need to be such a mess.


And it wouldn't be if they'd have just started with the liberal position, single-payer, and then just worked back to a compromise of Medicare for all.
Click to expand...

That's just not true. The problem is on the state level in states controlled by Republicans who either stubbornly refused funding or cynically worked to make the process convoluted in a way it didn't have to be. But go to a place like MN, OR, WA, etc. and that's just simply not the case.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

trixR4kids said:
It cost them their "jobs" because they caved to Joe Liebermann and conservadem types on the public option part rather than holding their feet to the fire and threatening their "jobs". Which is ironic in a number of ways.
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I dunno man, all I can say is that I disagree with your recollection.
The problem was dems in purple-red districts who realized this was going to be used against them by republican challengers, and that was exactly what happened. The number of reps who lost seats because their constituents thought the ACA wasn't progressive enough was dwarfed by those whose constituents thought it was "evil socialism" or "gov't overreach" or "death panels."
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Rover said:
What part of they didn't have 60 votes do you not understand?
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They did at one point. And pizzed it away with nothing to show for it.


You care to contemplate how much disastrous legislation the Repubs will pound through if they ever get 60 seats?
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Stauber1 said:
That's just not true. The problem is on the state level in states controlled by Republicans who either stubbornly refused funding or cynically worked to make the process convoluted in a way it didn't have to be. But go to a place like MN, OR, WA, etc. and that's just simply not the case.
Click to expand...

Which is why the entire structure of the thing was so needlessly complicated, and depended upon a Rube Goldberg mechanism working at 100% efficiency in order for the program to actually work.

What you just wrote as to why it didn't work is exactly why it was such a mess.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Stauber1 said:
I dunno man, all I can say is that I disagree with your recollection.
The problem was dems in purple-red districts who realized this was going to be used against them by republican challengers, and that was exactly what happened. The number of reps who lost seats because their constituents thought the ACA wasn't progressive enough was dwarfed by those whose constituents thought it was "evil socialism" or "gov't overreach" or "death panels."
Click to expand...

The problem was once they passed it, none of these democrats would fight for it. Pretty much no Democrats would fight for it, explain its benefits, and how it would help people.. They ran away from it as fast as they could. They let the Republicans paint it as government over-reach, socialism, death panels.

Cause no voters like having health insurance.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

rufus said:
They did at one point. And pizzed it away with nothing to show for it.
Click to expand...

Would you care to site where you're getting this from? Curious at what point they had 60 votes in the Senate for the public option.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

rufus said:
Which is why the entire structure of the thing was so needlessly complicated, and depended upon a Rube Goldberg mechanism working at 100% efficiency in order for the program to actually work.

What you just wrote as to why it didn't work is exactly why it was such a mess.
Click to expand...

The medicaid expansion is an absolute lifeline to millions of people in places where state gov't hasn't actively worked to sabotage it. I don't think you understand just how huge it has been.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Rover said:
What part of they didn't have 60 votes do you not understand?
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They get them if they hold peoples' feet to the flames, or those people lose their political careers as a result.

Rover said:
If Bernie is so persuasive, why has he never managed to get this to happen even though he's been in Congress since like 1987???
Click to expand...
Because we've had so many progressive presidents during that time lmao.

stauber1 said:
I dunno man, all I can say is that I disagree with your recollection.
The problem was dems in purple-red districts who realized this was going to be used against them by republican challengers, and that was exactly what happened. The number of reps who lost seats because their constituents thought the ACA wasn't progressive enough was dwarfed by those whose constituents thought it was "evil socialism" or "gov't overreach" or "death panels."
Click to expand...
That's what ended up happening anyhow, which is why you don't need to try and placate them in the first place.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Slap Shot said:
After scanning through tthe infighting between Kep/Scoobs/rufus/Rover/trix it's no wonder the Dems are a mess.
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Why, because we aren't monolithic?

I would estimate the intersection of all of Kep/Scoobs/rufus/Rover/trix is about 93% of the Venn diagram. I'm not worried about it at all.

Put another way, I can't think of a single point with regards to Dump or the GOP Glaubensbewegung that we disagree on.

Plus: the Dems are not "a mess." That's a lazy media narrative. The Dems are diverse, like any healthy democratic political organization.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

rufus said:
The problem was once they passed it, none of these democrats would fight for it. Pretty much no Democrats would fight for it, explain its benefits, and how it would help people.. They ran away from it as fast as they could. They let the Republicans paint it as government over-reach, socialism, death panels.

Cause no voters like having health insurance.
Click to expand...

I have to say I'm confused.
The problem is the legislation that was passed required a staunch defense and hard fight to sell to their constituents, which they weren't willing to engage in.
But the leadership should have pushed for an even more progressive piece of legislation that required an even bigger defense and even harder fight.

That doesn't seem reasonable to me.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Rover said:
Would you care to site where you're getting this from? Curious at what point they had 60 votes in the Senate for the public option.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying they had 60 for a public option. They had 60 D votes. If they wanted a public option bad enough, they could have got it. But that was like the first thing they took off the table.

You don't start negotiations in the middle, and then work towards the right. That's not compromising.
 
rufus said:
But trade wars are easy to win.
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What amazes me is the laser sharp focus each of the "retaliating" nation's have had in response to the knee-jerk action by Trump.

Mexico responded by placing tariffs on just one percent of US imports. One of the limited items impacted is Pork. One fraction of one percent.

But for all US pork exports, Mexico accounts for 25% of it.

I repeat: One of every four US pig farms that export pork are affected by an action that impacts less than one tenth of Mexican imports.



Donald Trump is the man who rejected third pound burgers because the quarter pounder sounds heavier because four is bigger than three.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Stauber1 said:
I have to say I'm confused.
The problem is the legislation that was passed required a staunch defense and hard fight to sell to their constituents, which they weren't willing to engage in.
But the leadership should have pushed for an even more progressive piece of legislation that required an even bigger defense and even harder fight.

That doesn't seem reasonable to me.
Click to expand...

It didn't need a fight to sell it. It needed a fight to defend against the attacks claiming it was something it wasn't. And no one would do that. Cause Dems have no backbone.


You spend 2 years shepherding this legislation through Congress, and then you won't even bother to stand up and defend your work. Spineless. That's why the public won't vote for Dems. They won't stand for anything.
 
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