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POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

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Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

The medicaid expansion is an absolute lifeline to millions of people in places where state gov't hasn't actively worked to sabotage it. I don't think you understand just how huge it has been.

And it's gone in 2 years. All that work. Those "brave" choices. And nothing to show for it. Like it never existed at all.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

It didn't need a fight to sell it. It needed a fight to defend against the attacks claiming it was something it wasn't. And no one would do that. Cause Dems have no backbone.

Again, plenty of us have backbone. And sometimes compromise is warranted. When Dems prematurely fold it doesn't usually have to do with "lack of spine," it has to do with perverse incentives inside the party that make folding on certain issues (in particular, holding the rich and powerful accountable) an acceptable or even a desired outcome for some Democratic decisionmakers.

But we're talking about a matter of degree. The Plutes in the Democratic party are an infection. The Plutes in the Republican party are the entire phenotype.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

And it's gone in 2 years. All that work. Those "brave" choices. And nothing to show for it. Like it never existed at all.

You're surprised? If anything the GOP has shown that it's much easier to destroy than it is to create. Look at what happened when the GOP said they were going to pass better, cheaper Health Care this session. They were devoid of ideas.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Cause Dems are spineless jagoffs who will give in to the Repubs on anything if they think it'll make the Repubs like them more. See: Patriot Act; Authorization to Use Military Force re: Iraq; public option off the table; no prosecutions for almost destroying the global economy, etc, etc.

Then start a new party or GTFO. Good lord talk about people whining...

And remember I agree with you in principle but right now the choice is winning and losing and what you and trix and Kepler are doing isnt going to help the Dems win. Keep infighting and there won be any wave in November. You want to have these fights, wait until you arent at risk for a bit. Being the minority party and splitting that minority even more is so stupid it sounds like something Trump would do.

This isnt a game...you dont get to pat yourself on the back because you "played honorably and fair" and there is no points for being classy. If you honestly think Trump and the GOP are the scum you say they are than there is only one way to play this...and going after the Centrists (or those you falsely claim are Centrists) isnt the way to do it. I may not like the Dem leadership, I may not like whi ends up getting the nomination but right now I dont care about any of that. I care about giving them what they need to win. ****ing on them for the next few months sure isnt going to help. But you do you, go all Foxton on the bit see where it gets ya. The ridiculous litmus test that the Dem Party is putting people through is an anchor and it will take everyone down with them.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Hey, it ain't me beeching about the DLC leadership. I'm totally behind Democrats.


I'm just saying, in safe districts, we gotta start electing people who are going to stand for something. Who are actually going to campaign on what they will do to make people's lives better. And then start doing it.


You get those people in place, and as Kep says, kick out the plute infestation, suddenly you're gonna see a lot more districts where Dems can get elected. And then you start this thing snowballing.


But you gotta stand for something. And people gotta know what that something is. Enough of this DC mealy-mouthing.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I mean Christ, part of what got Trump elected is that people just didn't know what the Democrats were going to do for them. What will you do to help improve my life?

And all the Dems talk about is social and gender equity. Laudable, yeah. But big whoop. What does that do for Leroy whose job just got shipped overseas to China?
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I dunno man, all I can say is that I disagree with your recollection.
The problem was dems in purple-red districts who realized this was going to be used against them by republican challengers, and that was exactly what happened. The number of reps who lost seats because their constituents thought the ACA wasn't progressive enough was dwarfed by those whose constituents thought it was "evil socialism" or "gov't overreach" or "death panels."

trix tends to have a rather unique version of history. Be warned ;)
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I mean Christ, part of what got Trump elected is that people just didn't know what the Democrats were going to do for them. What will you do to help improve my life?

And all the Dems talk about is social and gender equity. Laudable, yeah. But big whoop. What does that do for Leroy whose job just got shipped overseas to China?

And they certainly knew what Trump was going to do for them. And they certainly knew Obama didn't do ****. So, yeah, they were confused as ****.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I have to say I'm confused.
The problem is the legislation that was passed required a staunch defense and hard fight to sell to their constituents, which they weren't willing to engage in.
But the leadership should have pushed for an even more progressive piece of legislation that required an even bigger defense and even harder fight.

That doesn't seem reasonable to me.

The answer is obviously:

<img src="https://media.giphy.com/media/12NUbkX6p4xOO4/giphy.gif" />
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

Again, plenty of us have backbone. And sometimes compromise is warranted. When Dems prematurely fold it doesn't usually have to do with "lack of spine," it has to do with perverse incentives inside the party that make folding on certain issues (in particular, holding the rich and powerful accountable) an acceptable or even a desired outcome for some Democratic decisionmakers.

But we're talking about a matter of degree. The Plutes in the Democratic party are an infection. The Plutes in the Republican party are the entire phenotype.

He is not going to agree with you...rufus and trix are like the fans of sports teams who get mad because the magic trade they wanted or the awesome free agent they coveted didnt come to fruition and they blame the team. They forget that the decision comes down to more than just the team.

I was on this board railing against the ACA from the very beginning because it didnt have the public option...but the public option didnt have the support and a half good change is better than no change at all. Hindsight and all that...
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I was on this board railing against the ACA from the very beginning because it didnt have the public option...but the public option didnt have the support and a half good change is better than no change at all. Hindsight and all that...

I was here too and I was doing the same.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

I mean Christ, part of what got Trump elected is that people just didn't know what the Democrats were going to do for them. What will you do to help improve my life?

And all the Dems talk about is social and gender equity. Laudable, yeah. But big whoop. What does that do for Leroy whose job just got shipped overseas to China?

I agree...I have said for a while they need to step back from social issues a bit. I am 100% behind rights for everyone but that is stuff you do when you have power. You get power by convincing people you have what they need. Trump did it with coal and steel and oil and the people who need those jobs bit and bit hard.

The Dems need to get the working class back on their side and gender neutral bathrooms isnt going to do it.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

And it's gone in 2 years. All that work. Those "brave" choices. And nothing to show for it. Like it never existed at all.

That may be the case, but I don't think it is a forgone conclusion.

On the other hand, had the Democrats in 2010 managed to pass single payer, or even a public option, do you think Murkowski, Collins and McCain all would have voted "no" on the repeal in 2017?
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

That may be the case, but I don't think it is a forgone conclusion.

On the other hand, had the Democrats in 2010 managed to pass single payer, or even a public option, do you think Murkowski, Collins and McCain all would have voted "no" on the repeal in 2017?

BOOM goes the dynamite.
 
Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

People who think that message board arguments will cause the dems to lose are colossally stupid.

I mean Christ, part of what got Trump elected is that people just didn't know what the Democrats were going to do for them. What will you do to help improve my life?

And all the Dems talk about is social and gender equity. Laudable, yeah. But big whoop. What does that do for Leroy whose job just got shipped overseas to China?
There's a pretty obvious link between the neo-liberal agenda of the democrats over the past 30-40 years here or even in other countries that gets followed by fascism.

Handy, Rover, and friends can argue that third way centrism and some "moderate" economic agenda that does nothing to push back on the rightward shift that's created massive inequality and the election of a fascist will help us "win" but that's literally what got us here. And it will happen again if people don't wake up to the economic reality of people less fortunate than those of a college hockey forum or their neighbors from uptown/whichever upper middle class suburb.

As for my recollection of history, well, we'll just let this piece speak for itself:
https://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/22/can-obama-bypass-republicans-on-health/#glenn

Proponents of filibuster reform typically argue that the 60-vote requirement impedes valuable legislation. But it seems clear that the filibuster is a convenient excuse Democrats use to justify their inaction (we’d like to pass it but can’t because, sadly, we just don’t have 60 votes). As the health care debacle demonstrates, even with that obstacle removed, the White House still refuse to push for progressive provisions.

Given that prospects for bipartisan support for health reform is nonexistent, the only sensible course is for the White House to push for and the Senate to pass a progressive bill that voters want, not the most so-called “centrist” legislation that most pleases corporatist and lobbyist interests.

If the Democrats’ claims all year long were remotely true, then robust reform (including a public option) can easily pass the Senate with 51 votes through the reconciliation process. There is no reason for Democrats to avoid that, and every reason for them to pursue it.
 
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Re: POTUS 45.34: Spy Gate. No Spy. No Gate.

And they certainly knew what Trump was going to do for them. And they certainly knew Obama didn't do ****. So, yeah, they were confused as ****.

All they knew was what they heard. Republicans talk all sorts of **** and don't do it. Dems won't even try to sell themselves, just that, not Republicans. Well, apparently, a lot of people like Republicans.


Ad Obama can do a million things, but if say, economically it's not felt on main street, then what does it matter? Prices keep going up, everything keeps costing more, and I just lost my job cause the company closed down production and moved overseas. But hey, the stock markets at an all-time high, and corporate profits are at an all-time high, so things must be great.

Except I'm still out of work and the mortgage is due. What are you gonna do that's gonna have a positive affect for me? Let the gays marry?
 
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