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POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

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Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

ScoobyDoo said:
Basically what we need to know is we need an overwhelming majority of votes in polls prior to election day to have any chance of winning. People are lying to pollsters now because they don't want to admit they are voting for an Orc, AND the Liberals out there are all over the map with their ridiculous demands about needing to fall in love with their candidate or they're not voting for him/her.
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I don't agree with the second part of your last sentence, obviously, or at any rate I don't agree that wanting a Democrat to be a Democrat and not a 1973 Republican is Utopian. But your bigger point is important. Between voter suppression and whatever other ahem "irregularities" are going to take place under this administration, we probably need at least 55% of the vote to win the next national and red state elections. The important thing is to nip it in the bug, because the curtailing of rights will only get worse.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

Didn't Bernie win (during the primary) all the key states that Hillary lost? Pretty sure he won the rust belt states that she lost, IDK about the others.

Obviously Hillary won the primary and had more votes but if that's because she's winning resoundingly in places like Alabama that clearly aren't going to vote for her in the general election, is it possible Bernie might've done better than her in the general election? Admittedly I'm not super knowledgeable on how the primary works but it's easy to see how she won over him given how much more support she had.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

Kepler said:
I don't agree with the second part of your last sentence, obviously, or at any rate I don't agree that wanting a Democrat to be a Democrat and not a 1973 Republican is Utopian. But your bigger point is important. Between voter suppression and whatever other ahem "irregularities" are going to take place under this administration, we probably need at least 55% of the vote to win the next national and red state elections. The important thing is to nip it in the bug, because the curtailing of rights will only get worse.
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I knew you wouldn't but I think the overwhelming majority of the data supports it. I just read an letter to the editor in the paper the other day of a woman who voted Democrat every election and she voted Trump this time. She bought the EMAILZ and BENGHAZI crap that the GOP shoveled for over a year, and it's exactly that crap. Benghazi committee disbanded immediately after the election and I don't see any indictments in Hillary's near future.

The electorate got duped. And the new CIA Deputy is ready to waterboard. Nice country.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

trixR4kids said:
Didn't Bernie win (during the primary) all the key states that Hillary lost? Pretty sure he won the rust belt states that she lost, IDK about the others.

Obviously Hillary won the primary and had more votes but if that's because she's winning resoundingly in places like Alabama that clearly aren't going to vote for her in the general election, is it possible Bernie might've done better than her in the general election?
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Bernie won the states that Hillary won running against Obama. Caucus states mostly. States with huge numbers of voters he lost.
 
Kepler said:
I admit that is an excellent point. I will ponder it and hey it may even change my mind.

But I think the lesson we should learn is "in for a penny, in for a pound." You go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had, and at that point the effort must be maximal. I will definitely admit that in being snide about Hillary after the nomination I was wrong. But I think you are equally wrong when you paint large swaths of the party as intransigent or delusional or spoiled. If nothing else, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Three cliches in one paragraph is my limit.
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If I had to put forward a hypothesis I'd say it was the "Never Trump" Republicans crossing over to vote Hillary, but only Hillary. They exist, just not in great enough numbers to sway things but in enough numbers to be noticeable.

The one I can comment on is in Alaska and the Senate election. The Dem candidate got clobbered mostly due to the fact he was an actual DINO, he switched parties like six months before, and got zero party support. Couple that with an independent running that had support and you have our result.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

Jimjamesak said:
The one I can comment on is in Alaska and the Senate election. The Dem candidate got clobbered mostly due to the fact he was an actual DINO, he switched parties like six months before, and got zero party support. Couple that with an independent running that had support and you have our result.
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The example doesn't fit Rover's thesis though that Hillary did better than our liberal candidates. If it turns out that Hillary disproportionately outdrew liberal rather than moderate Democratic candidates when other factors are normalized then Rover's thesis is supported.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

Jimjamesak said:
"See a need, fill a need."
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I mean that story broke this morning, right? And we already went through the scoop --> BS non-apology --> backlash cycle?

This sh-ts gonna start happening before the event. :p It should be pretty easy to predict Trump's team's lies. Just cover every major topic likely to arise and redirect it.
 
Kepler said:
The example doesn't fit Rover's thesis though that Hillary did better than our liberal candidates. If it turns out that Hillary disproportionately outdrew liberal rather than moderate Democratic candidates when other factors are normalized then Rover's thesis is supported.
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Actually it supports it perfectly. Hillary got more votes because some folks crossed for her and only for her.

Liberal candidates got dragged down a horrible "******* all this bs!" anchor. They got dragged down by people just staying home because of the mess on the top of the ticket. I know quite a few who had zero trust in the party after, in particular, the pick of Kaine for VP. Liberals didn't show up at all and Hillary is to blame squarely for that.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

Jimjamesak said:
Actually it supports it perfectly. Hillary got more votes because some folks crossed for her and only for her.

Liberal candidates got dragged down a horrible "******* all this bs!" anchor. They got dragged down by people just staying home because of the mess on the top of the ticket. I know quite a few who had zero trust in the party after, in particular, the pick of Kaine for VP. Liberals didn't show up at all and Hillary is to blame squarely for that.
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Yet, all the conservatives came out for the Orange Baboon. Really highlights the difference between the parties, doesn't it?

That is the core lesson of this election that the liberals must understand or they will never be in power anywhere again.
 
Re: POTUS 45.2 - Same arguments, different sides

Like I said before if the dem leadership doesn't do enough to generate excitement and get people out to the polls then they deserve a lot of the blame. The millions of individuals all making the independent decision deserve some blame too I guess but the common denominator is at the top and they have more power to make this happen.

It's like blaming the dumb people who bought houses and eventually backed away from their mortgage for the financial crisis.
 
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