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POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

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Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

rufus said:
You don't have to punish them. But you also don't have to go out of your way to acknowledge those beliefs and feelings, to relate to those people as if those feelings are perfectly acceptable and a valid viewpoint. To tolerate those feelings. They need to be shunned, not mainstreamed.

Brent and Slappy just think we need to speak to them as equals, and all their hatred and bigotry will just go away.
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Let me ask you this.

Do you think there has been a change of opinion of some of the population regarding things like race, or bigotry against gays and lesbians, in say the last 75 years in this country? That is, if we were able to look into everyone's minds 75 years ago and reveal their thoughts on blacks, or on gays and lesbians, and compare that with today's thoughts by the entire population, do you think we'd see some level of improvement?

I do. I'm not 75 years old, but I'm approaching 60 and I can tell you for a fact there is a lot more tolerance for gays and lesbians in the community at large than there was say in even the 1970's.

There is still a lot of bigotry and hatred in this country. There will always be a lot of bigotry and hatred in this country. All you can do is chip away at it, as has been done certainly for all the years I've been around, and long before that. You don't chip away at it by "shunning" or by ignoring people. You don't do it by hating them back. You do your best to show them a better way. If it sticks, great. If not, you've done your best. It's a lot like second grade math. It took some longer than others, and some never got it.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

ScoobyDoo said:
The US isn't adopting it because the Courts are stopping it. The Trump administration is all for it.
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The courts are stopping it because they (to the best of my knowledge) are interpreting that as racism.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

MaizeRage said:
I have no idea how anyone could think that about someone that has spent almost a year giving kneejerk defenses of Donald Trump.
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You're going to have to jog my memory by linking me to some of those posts. As I've said before, I don't claim a perfect memory but I don't recall much in the way of a defense of Donald Trump coming out of my computer keyboard.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

Brenthoven said:
And that's why I clarified what I was saying. The US isn't adopting Israeli tactics because that is "racial profiling" in our culture. It only relates to the immigration thing, because when we start talking illegal/legal immigrants, racism is immediately brought to the forefront to defend illegal immigrants; do you know what I mean? (honestly, not intending this to sound like I'm talking down to you).
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Other than the racism part of profiling, and the racism part of most illegal immigration fear policy- there's no relationship between the TSA an immigration, then?
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

rufus said:
But you condemn one, and say nothing about the other. Just another example of your false equivalency.
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And if I don't defend one, that obviously means I'm condemning him/her? Works both ways. ;)
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

Brenthoven said:
And there is where the getting rid of cheap labor comes in/illegals. If one eliminates a chunk of the work force, then supply (workers willing to work for cheap) is less than demand (jobs). You are correct that companies will try to get by on the cheap, and there will always be a certain percentage that will work for that wage. We both are trying to change the game a little, just in different ways.
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The approach currently being taken by Trump seems to make little sense. Yes, he is trying to make it harder to get in to the country with a physical barrier and kick more people out. But at the same time his approach is to take jobs out of Mexico and move them to the US, which will only encourage more illegal immigration to follow the jobs. If you really want to crack down on the illegal immigration from Mexico (since you mentioned the wall I assume you care less about Asian immigrants, and the ideas below would likely impact Central American immigration as well) you need to crack down on the employers rather than the immigrants. Then couple that with an expanded guest worker program or something similar to still allow employers to be fully staffed. It would also seem that if you want to discourage illegal immigration from Mexico the easiest way to do it would be to help strengthen the Mexican economy. Encourage companies to locate to Mexico rather than Asia, provide jobs in Mexico. A strong Mexican economy is in our best interest, not only to slow illegal immigration, but to provide more stability in Mexico. If there was a strong economy there you might even make an impact on the reliance on cartels and drug trafficking which can only help us here as well. The current policies of the right towards immigration are the exact same as the war on drugs, they aren't looking to proactively address the causes, they are only looking to punish the offenders. History has shown that is not effective.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

alfablue said:
Other than the racism part of profiling, and the racism part of most illegal immigration fear policy- there's no relationship between the TSA an immigration, then?
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There's a relationship, and as you said, it doesn't really pertain to illegal immigration; it does pertain to immigration and fear of those big bad Muslims, though. (ok, that last part was really snarky, sorry 'bout that, felt it was needed to explain my point).
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

jerphisch said:
The approach currently being taken by Trump seems to make little sense. Yes, he is trying to make it harder to get in to the country with a physical barrier and kick more people out. But at the same time his approach is to take jobs out of Mexico and move them to the US, which will only encourage more illegal immigration to follow the jobs. If you really want to crack down on the illegal immigration from Mexico (since you mentioned the wall I assume you care less about Asian immigrants, and the ideas below would likely impact Central American immigration as well) you need to crack down on the employers rather than the immigrants. Then couple that with an expanded guest worker program or something similar to still allow employers to be fully staffed. It would also seem that if you want to discourage illegal immigration from Mexico the easiest way to do it would be to help strengthen the Mexican economy. Encourage companies to locate to Mexico rather than Asia, provide jobs in Mexico. A strong Mexican economy is in our best interest, not only to slow illegal immigration, but to provide more stability in Mexico. If there was a strong economy there you might even make an impact on the reliance on cartels and drug trafficking which can only help us here as well. The current policies of the right towards immigration are the exact same as the war on drugs, they aren't looking to proactively address the causes, they are only looking to punish the offenders. History has shown that is not effective.
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I don't care if you're Asian, Mexican, Russian, German, etc. If you are an illegal immigrant, you should not be here. There is a neighborhood somewhat close to me, heavily Russian populated. I'll just say that I doubt all of them are legally here.

Edit: for the locals: 36th and 169. Big time Russian neighborhood.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

SJHovey said:
There is still a lot of bigotry and hatred in this country. There will always be a lot of bigotry and hatred in this country. All you can do is chip away at it, as has been done certainly for all the years I've been around, and long before that. You don't chip away at it by "shunning" or by ignoring people. You don't do it by hating them back. You do your best to show them a better way. If it sticks, great. If not, you've done your best. It's a lot like second grade math. It took some longer than others, and some never got it.
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And I'd say the major mover of all that is when people had the black family, or the gay couple, move into their neighborhood and start going to their schools, and their wives didn't get raped, and their children didn't get molested, and the crime rate didn't go up, and their property values didn't go down. Things like that.

It certainly wasn't because of political discourse on the subject of tolerance. You aren't gonna change a bigot's mind by talking to them, or ameliorating their feelings. Only exposure to the things they hate, and them discovering for themselves how their hatred has been misinformed, will do that. If they want to stay secluded in their little cone of bigotry, I ain't gonna go seeking them out and try to drag them out into the light.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

rufus said:
And I'd say the major mover of all that is when people had the black family, or the gay couple, move into their neighborhood and start going to their schools, and their wives didn't get raped, and their children didn't get molested, and the crime rate didn't go up, and their property values didn't go down. Things like that.

It certainly wasn't because of political discourse on the subject of tolerance. You aren't gonna change a bigot's mind by talking to them, or ameliorating their feelings. Only exposure to the things they hate, and them discovering for themselves how their hatred has been misinformed, will do that. If they want to stay secluded in their little cone of bigotry, I ain't gonna go seeking them out and try to drag them out into the light.
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Agree on exposure. But talking with them is part of that, IMO.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

rufus said:
Muslims are a race, don'cha know.
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As (the hilarious) W Kamau Bell said:

Not all Muslims are Arab. Not all Arabs are Muslim.

Unfortunately, there are some who don't believe those statements. They think Muslim/Arab are interchangeable, thereby making it a race issue, not a religious one.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

Brenthoven said:
I don't care if you're Asian, Mexican, Russian, German, etc. If you are an illegal immigrant, you should not be here. There is a neighborhood somewhat close to me, heavily Russian populated. I'll just say that I doubt all of them are legally here.

Edit: for the locals: 36th and 169. Big time Russian neighborhood.
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This is such a beautiful example of why there can't be an honest conversation....
 
jerphisch said:
This is such a beautiful example of why there can't be an honest conversation....
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How does know that someone is likely not here legally?
Does sarah palin have a tunnel up there to sneak Russians in?
 
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