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POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

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Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

geezer said:
Some folks might have forgotten that the Rust Belt would-be coal miners that gave Trump the margin of victory were, on average, lifelong democrats who felt they didn't have an audience in Washington for their gripes and so they rebelled in 2016. They're not going to be that hard to win back. Repaying bigotry with bigotry isn't going to do it. (On this site alone, which is more civilized than most, I've heard it proclaimed that poor whites should be shot, nuked, lynched, sent to the moon, deported, sterilized, and worse; would that be okay to say about blacks? Be honest) There is still something to be said about acting in a civilized way to win people to your point of view.
Having said that, we can all concede that the Republican Party is thoroughly corrupted and needs to be removed from power. A one-party state is also high on the list of steps to authoritarian dictatorships (On Tyranny, Timothy Snyder) So I suggest doing away with the hated (R) label altogether and re-forming the (D)s into conservatives and liberals who are honest and well-intentioned Americans favoring Democracy. That way rufus etc. can have a victory parade and we can recenter the debate on more sane grounds. I'll leave it to you what to name the new major parties. But one should be Whigs because it sounds cool.
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How you gonna do that? By promising them their jobs back, like Trumpy did, and has no intention whatsoever of doing so? Cause those jobs aren't coming back.

Or, you tell them straight up, like Hillary did, that those jobs aren't coming back and we need to transition away from that, and help those workers with education and job training in other industries. And get accused of being snobby eliteists talking down to them.

These people don't want to hear the truth, and don't want to make the effort to effect the changes in their lives necessary in order for them to find a place in the modern economy. They'd rather blame the blacks and Meskins for their plight, and support anyone who promises to bash those groups.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

rufus said:
How you gonna do that? By promising them their jobs back, like Trumpy did, and has no intention whatsoever of doing so? Cause those jobs aren't coming back.

Or, you tell them straight up, like Hillary did, that those jobs aren't coming back and we need to transition away from that, and help those workers with education and job training in other industries. And get accused of being snobby eliteists talking down to them.

These people don't want to hear the truth, and don't want to make the effort to effect the changes in their lives necessary in order for them to find a place in the modern economy. They'd rather blame the blacks and Meskins for their plight, and support anyone who promises to bash those groups.
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Exactly. Hillary went and talked to them. They're ****ing idiots.

Meanwhile Trump is likely going to placate them by pulling out of the Paris Accords. For coal. Not any other industry in America except maybe Conservative Media is for pulling out of the Paris thing. But, that's what Coal wants. The dirtiest energy source on the planet.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/POTUS">@POTUS</a>' budget would cut Farm Bill programs by $231 billion and eliminate <a href="https://twitter.com/usdaRD">@usdaRD</a> programs. That's not how you stand up for rural America.</p>— Sen. Al Franken (@SenFranken) <a href="https://twitter.com/SenFranken/status/870329252281028609">June 1, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Pretty pathetic that Franken has to waste his time fighting for stuff that rural America doesn't want. Someone should tell him that rural America voted for Trump. in droves.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

SJHovey said:
Brent, you and I agree on some things and disagree on others, but I'm on the opposite side of the fence with you on this issue.

Here is my view on immigration, and the reaction to it.

Immigration is an instinct possessed by every living thing. The instinct to search for better shelter, better economic opportunities (food), better mating opportunities, and a safe place to live are why salmon swim upstream, geese fly south in the winter and zebras head to the watering hole. It's why few people stayed in North Dakota as everyone headed west, while everyone else went to California.

The instinct of living things who are already there to protect what they view as theirs is also basic. I disagree that at it's core it is based on race or religion or other forms of illegal bigotry. I think we saw evidence of that in the 1930's as white Americans from the midwest tried to emigrate to the West for all the same reasons Mexicans now had north, and were faced with the same form of "bigotry," even though these Okies had been their fellow travelers out West but just got tired of the ride.

We accept as natural the desire of humans to move from Mississippi to California, across artificially created borders, in search of a better way of life. Why is it unnatural to accept a similar move across the artificial border with Mexico?

My immigration policy would be this.

1. If you want to come here, welcome. You just have to abide by our rules. You need to pay your taxes. You need to follow our laws.

2. If you want a say in creating the rules, that's another matter. You actually have to go through the steps of becoming a citizen, then you can vote, sit on juries, etc... Otherwise, you're going to have to live within the rules we establish.

I personally disagree with the idea of trying to criminalize or even legislate against these basic human instincts. I have this opinion because I actually think that instinct is good and positive. We are better off as a globe if people in general have a better standard of living.
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Perfect. I'm on your side.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

rufus said:
How you gonna do that? By promising them their jobs back, like Trumpy did, and has no intention whatsoever of doing so? Cause those jobs aren't coming back.

Or, you tell them straight up, like Hillary did, that those jobs aren't coming back and we need to transition away from that, and help those workers with education and job training in other industries. And get accused of being snobby eliteists talking down to them.

These people don't want to hear the truth, and don't want to make the effort to effect the changes in their lives necessary in order for them to find a place in the modern economy. They'd rather blame the blacks and Meskins for their plight, and support anyone who promises to bash those groups.
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Considering Trump's actually trying to give them what they want, as opposed to pulling a "Resistance is Futile" moment, that means it's someone that will actually redress their grievances. Sometimes, things don't work completely the way people want, and it seems we're seeing that, despite Trump actually fulfilling the campaign promises and trying to bring this employment to this country. The public has more respect for that than someone not even trying and just saying "too bad", or even worse, lying to them (which it seems you're accusing him of doing). If they know of someone who can do better, perhaps that person should run for office. But that's their decision.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

ScoobyDoo said:
Exactly. Hillary went and talked to them. They're ****ing idiots.

Meanwhile Trump is likely going to placate them by pulling out of the Paris Accords. For coal. Not any other industry in America except maybe Conservative Media is for pulling out of the Paris thing. But, that's what Coal wants. The dirtiest energy source on the planet.
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And provides the basic carbon necessary for pretty much everything we build these days. Not all coal is burned for energy.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

Brenthoven said:
Hey, this guy robbed a bank to feed his family. Sure he broke the law but just tax his "take" and call it good. Cool? Yes that is an odd comparison, but in both cases, laws were broken. Pay the piper if you break the law.

Crap, Flaggy is agreeing with me.......not sure I like that.
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The problem is the degree that someone was harmed by those laws.

A robs B of something- it's clear that B was harmed and that needs to be fixed.

A speeds on the road- which risks the other drivers on the road- A needs punished.

A illegally crosses the border- and the "law" broken was a lack of visa. IF it can be demonstrated that they are actually taking jobs away from someone who wants the same job- then, yes someone is harmed. On the other hand, if nobody else wants that job even at an elevated, but reasonable salary- then who is being harmed? Instead of punishing them by deporting them- punish them by requiring them to pay SS and Medicare tax without getting the benefit. It's a whole lot easier penalty to pay, the employer still has workers, and the government has tax INCOME instead of an expense.

That's a far, far, far better penalty than straight up deportation. And someone is still "paying the piper".
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

alfablue said:
The problem is the degree that someone was harmed by those laws.

A robs B of something- it's clear that B was harmed and that needs to be fixed.

A speeds on the road- which risks the other drivers on the road- A needs punished.

A illegally crosses the border- and the "law" broken was a lack of visa. IF it can be demonstrated that they are actually taking jobs away from someone who wants the same job- then, yes someone is harmed. On the other hand, if nobody else wants that job even at an elevated, but reasonable salary- then who is being harmed? Instead of punishing them by deporting them- punish them by requiring them to pay SS and Medicare tax without getting the benefit. It's a whole lot easier penalty to pay, the employer still has workers, and the government has tax INCOME instead of an expense.

That's a far, far, far better penalty than straight up deportation. And someone is still "paying the piper".
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If they don't have a job, they're using services paid with tax dollars that are to be apportioned to us. And guess what: The sanctuary cities are providing welfare. I'd say that's quite harmful.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

ScoobyDoo said:
Pretty pathetic that Franken has to waste his time fighting for stuff that rural America doesn't want. Someone should tell him that rural America voted for Trump. in droves.
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It's nice though that Trump has taken time off from screwing his Rust Belt and hillbilly voters to spend some time screwing his flyover farm voters.

He should really come out as pro affirmative action to screw over the white nationalists, too. Clean sweep.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

Brenthoven said:
Start actually deporting the illegals. Get rid of the "safe" cities/refugee cities that are part of the debate. Crack down on employers that hire illegals. Be pro-active, not reactive. I know the US is ramping up under the current administration, and Obama did an okay job with it (credit to him). Let's keep it up. Be diligent.

And I agree with keeping those dam Scots out. ;)
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These are all reactive steps to people already here, even if you deport every single one some will come back and new immigrants will come, for reasons that Hovey hit on very well. The only way to proactively discourage illegal immigration is to improve conditions where they are coming from, which is what I was trying to hit on.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

jerphisch said:
These are all reactive steps to people already here, even if you deport every single one some will come back and new immigrants will come, for reasons that Hovey hit on very well. The only way to proactively discourage illegal immigration is to improve conditions where they are coming from, which is what I was trying to hit on.
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So you expect us to improve the standard of living of everyone else? As much as I can understand your concept, there's not much we can do in terms of execution. And unfortunately, with Agenda 21 in the UN, your goal isn't exactly getting achieved.
 
Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

ScoobyDoo said:
Yes. Pointing out that 53% of white women voted for a rapist and a bully is definitely going full Foxton.
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All you're missing is the ragestorm of self-censored four-letter words. Sorry you can't see it.

SJHovey said:
Is it 53% of white women, or 53% of white women who actually voted?
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Remember, women who didn't vote, voted for Trump by proxy. That's the mantra, and it has nothing to do with the fact that Hillary failed to convince them to vote.
 
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