Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

[UCBadger]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

See post #58 in this thread.

We will be watching this with great interest!

 

[ballgame]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

who was the coach?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

who was the coach?

For Potsdam? Chris Bernard.

But this problem is not at all the coaches fault. See earlier post I made about who's fault it is.

 

[ncaacdn]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Would it not be easier for "border" teams to keep this ratio in balance than teams more distant to the Canadian border? I would think more canadian students would be inclined to enroll at Potsdam than say Cortland.

I also know that the ncaa is investigating one ECAC W school for simular infractions and I have heard rumors that they are investigating atleast one more.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Would it not be easier for "border" teams to keep this ratio in balance than teams more distant to the Canadian border? I would think more canadian students would be inclined to enroll at Potsdam than say Cortland.

I also know that the ncaa is investigating one ECAC W school for simular infractions and I have heard rumors that they are investigating atleast one more.

Considering Buffalo State and Potsdam are border schools, and both fell afoul of this rule, I guess the answer would be no... Of course, border schools could also do more of their recruiting for hockey players in Canada, so it may be easier to fall afoul of this rule.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Would it not be easier for "border" teams to keep this ratio in balance than teams more distant to the Canadian border? I would think more canadian students would be inclined to enroll at Potsdam than say Cortland.

I also know that the ncaa is investigating one ECAC W school for simular infractions and I have heard rumors that they are investigating atleast one more.

You would think so, but I know several Canadian (non-athletes) who don't like the American education system and would rather stay in their own country. However, Canadian athletes, (especially hockey), choose to go to US Colleges because of the sports. There are more opportunities for them to play in the NCAA with only 34 CIS teams. Do some cross the border and go through the whole student visa, sure, but putting blame on the school for them not coming is just plain dumb. You would think more would being so close to Canada, and there were actually a few Canadians that inrolled in Crane and I assume in other areas as well. I just think its obsurd the NCAA wants the colleges to beg non-athletic students from other countries to come to their school.

Like I said..if the package is offered to ALL foreign students, both athletes and not, and the entrance process is followed equally for those two groups....it should not matter who shows up and who doesn't. The NCAA would rather worry about this then worry about the schools that are giving 2 and 3 times as much in their packages then other schools.

What makes it even worse, the womens Lacrosse team has a total of 20 players....and only ONE from the great white north....granted they won't be making the playoffs, but still. I know the team wasn't very happy about it. (not that any would).

 

[westscout]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

"Like I said..if the package is offered to ALL foreign students, both athletes and not, and the entrance process is followed equally for those two groups....it should not matter who shows up and who doesn't. The NCAA would rather worry about this then worry about the schools that are giving 2 and 3 times as much in their packages then other schools."

This is so true! The NCAA works in funny ways. We all know that other programs are in violation as well, giving out "Academic Aid" that we all know is Hockey Aid. Why is that the only ones that get investigated are ones like Potsdam, Buff-State and Gen-State?

Go ahead and rip away! I know that everyone is doing things clean.


Westscout

 

[sloth2946]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Remember what I wrote in my column when the Geneseo/Buffalo State story first broke? I wrote there are potentially a lot more of these coming down. And not just in SUNYAC.

The surprising thing about Potsdam is I used them as an example of how to do it right, since they had an academic program set up to attract non-athlete Canadian students. So, the question has to be, where did it go wrong?

It went wrong because it was flawed to begin with.

This program started I think 1-2 years after I graduated Potsdam. Upon reading about it I thought, 'well that's a creative way to attract Canadian hockey talent by lowering the tuition to make it financially viable for them to come.'

Check out the Bears' roster in the mid to late 90's. Most of the players were from NY or in the US in general. Then there was a shift. This season there were 4 Americans out of a 27 man roster. This has been the trend for over a decade now.

Unintentional my arse, this WAS the intention.

As an alum, I'm honestly mad at this. But I totally saw it coming.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

It went wrong because it was flawed to begin with.

This program started I think 1-2 years after I graduated Potsdam. Upon reading about it I thought, 'well that's a creative way to attract Canadian hockey talent by lowering the tuition to make it financially viable for them to come.'

Check out the Bears' roster in the mid to late 90's. Most of the players were from NY or in the US in general. Then there was a shift. This season there were 4 Americans out of a 27 man roster. This has been the trend for over a decade now.

Unintentional my arse, this WAS the intention.

As an alum, I'm honestly mad at this. But I totally saw it coming.

Certainly the "intention" if the coaching staff should be to recruit the best talent available and to use whatever resources is available. What is unintentional, in the eyes of the NCAA (and I am in rare agreement with them), is that the program was not conceived by the administration to focus its benefits on any particular group, though its potential was certainly noted and justifiable a focus of the coaching staff. What went wrong is that general recruiting did not focus enough on it, and no one kept tabs on the ratio of athletes to non-athletes that were accepting the offer.

I do agree with you, given the status of hockey in Canada, this IS a foreseeable issue; the only solution is a very active international recruitment office, such as Plattsburgh's International Student Services (ISS) and Admissions.

 

[sloth2946]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Certainly the "intention" if the coaching staff should be to recruit the best talent available and to use whatever resources is available. What is unintentional, in the eyes of the NCAA (and I am in rare agreement with them), is that the program was not conceived by the administration to focus its benefits on any particular group, though its potential was certainly noted and justifiable a focus of the coaching staff. What went wrong is that general recruiting did not focus enough on it, and no one kept tabs on the ratio of athletes to non-athletes that were accepting the offer.

I do agree with you, given the status of hockey in Canada, this IS a foreseeable issue; the only solution is a very active international recruitment office, such as Plattsburgh's International Student Services (ISS) and Admissions.

Norm, I have to disagree with you. There is almost ZERO incentive for a foreign born to come to a SUNY school, even for the education other than sports. They can get the same education at a CIS school or European university for a whole lot less money they just have, as one other poster pointed out in this thread, less athletic opportunities.

You don't think that the coaches of all the schools that have these programs, and in Potsdam's case all the coaches they've had since its implementation have used this as a recruiting tool steering these Canadian kids through this program? Please don't be naive.

These coaches are paid to win. And the belief is that the Canadian kids are better hockey players. So this is a tool to get them. I firmly believe, and I have ZERO evidence to back this up, that the programs were instituted for this purpose, no other reason.

This is why I like what the U of Minnesota does. Check their roster. All kids from Minnesota. They do that on purpose. They are in the thick of it each year and do things on principle.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Norm, I have to disagree with you. There is almost ZERO incentive for a foreign born to come to a SUNY school, even for the education other than sports. They can get the same education at a CIS school or European university for a whole lot less money they just have, as one other poster pointed out in this thread, less athletic opportunities.

You don't think that the coaches of all the schools that have these programs, and in Potsdam's case all the coaches they've had since its implementation have used this as a recruiting tool steering these Canadian kids through this program? Please don't be naive.

These coaches are paid to win. And the belief is that the Canadian kids are better hockey players. So this is a tool to get them. I firmly believe, and I have ZERO evidence to back this up, that the programs were instituted for this purpose, no other reason.

This is why I like what the U of Minnesota does. Check their roster. All kids from Minnesota. They do that on purpose. They are in the thick of it each year and do things on principle.

I don't disagree with your post, but check out the U of Minnesota recently.

They haven't been what they should be in quite some time now. I'm not saying it has anything to with just strictly recruiting Minnesota kids but I do know the U of Minn. has been plagued (just like Michigan) by kids leaving school after a year or two to go sign with pro teams.

 

[Sir Nubs]

I don't disagree with your post, but check out the U of Minnesota recently.

They haven't been what they should be in quite some time now. I'm not saying it has anything to with just strictly recruiting Minnesota kids but I do know the U of Minn. has been plagued (just like Michigan) by kids leaving school after a year or two to go sign with pro teams.

The Minnesota-only policy was a Doug Woog thing. If you're familiar with Phil Kessel he's a Madison boy who played for the Gophers.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

The Minnesota-only policy was a Doug Woog thing. If you're familiar with Phil Kessel he's a Madison boy who played for the Gophers.

Not to mention Vanek, who wasn't even from North America.

 

[sloth2946]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Minnesota has 4 kids not from Minn on the roster.

That's better than an out of the conf playoff team like Potsdam loading up on Canadians with only 4 non-Canadian players on the roster.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Norm, I have to disagree with you. There is almost ZERO incentive for a foreign born to come to a SUNY school, even for the education other than sports. They can get the same education at a CIS school or European university for a whole lot less money they just have, as one other poster pointed out in this thread, less athletic opportunities.

You don't think that the coaches of all the schools that have these programs, and in Potsdam's case all the coaches they've had since its implementation have used this as a recruiting tool steering these Canadian kids through this program? Please don't be naive.

These coaches are paid to win. And the belief is that the Canadian kids are better hockey players. So this is a tool to get them. I firmly believe, and I have ZERO evidence to back this up, that the programs were instituted for this purpose, no other reason.

This is why I like what the U of Minnesota does. Check their roster. All kids from Minnesota. They do that on purpose. They are in the thick of it each year and do things on principle.

My post from the Plattsburgh thread:

PSU best in world, international students say - {Article from the Plattsburgh Press-Republican 4/19/2011}

PLATTSBURGH — Nick Persad had never heard of Plattsburgh State, but his advisor raved about the journalism program so the Trinidad and Tobago native gave it a shot.

Plus, he earned a generous scholarship.

"I have never had such great experiences in and outside of classes," said the senior at Plattsburgh State. "The team at Plattsburgh State is helpful and quick to respond."

Persad is not alone in that feeling about the college.

The 2010 International Student Barometer ranked Plattsburgh State first in the world in terms of making friends and first in the United States for student satisfaction with the overall learning environment. The college further ranked third in overall satisfaction among its global competitors and fifth in the world for satisfaction with the overall learning environment.

The International Student Barometer is the world's largest international student survey. It tracks decision-making, expectations, perceptions and experiences of international students through an online questionnaire. Responding to the survey were 157,964 students at 203 institutions worldwide.

"The SUNY Plattsburgh experience leads the nation in satisfaction for international students, and SUNY's commitment to providing a friendly learning environment is unwavering for all of our students," said Chancellor Nancy L. Zimpher in a news release.

For Plattsburgh State President Dr. John Ettling, the results provide a glimpse into the strength of the college's programs and course offerings, as well as how students feel it measures up against some of the best schools around the world.

Some of the overseas schools included were Oxford, Edinburgh University, Kings College London, St. Andrews University and the University of Adelaide. American schools included Kent State, Northeastern, Michigan State and Drexel universities.

"We are immensely proud of the work that goes on at the college, day in and day out, assisting our students when they need support and creating a strong academic environment," Ettling said.

Plattsburgh State also ranked first in the country and the world for student care and safety in residence halls and for its Office of International Student Services.

"The teaching and learning environment is great here, and this reflects how students feel about the academic experience," said Jackie Girard Vogl, Plattsburgh State's vice president for international enrollment. "I think that has to do with the really passionate people I work with. It is not just a job, it's a lifestyle."

The presence of international students on campus improves the college experience for everyone, enhancing the classroom environment and providing a global perspective, she said.

Vogl said her staff works hard to find students who are a good match for the school.

"We interact with prospective students using every possible means of communication: direct interaction at college fairs and school visits worldwide; email; Facebook; and the telephone, employing current students who speak their native language."

Plattsburgh State has one of the largest international student populations per capita of any comprehensive school in the SUNY system with 385 students from countries such as Canada, Antigua, China, Egypt, Sri Lanka, Japan, Tanzania and India.

Plattsburgh State ranked first in the United States for academic performance feedback, learning support, visa advice, Financial Aid, quality lectures, good teachers, student advising and career help for students.

Vogl said Plattsburgh State's size is a primary factor.

"We can provide that level of personalized attention in and out of the classroom because of the relatively intimate size of our community."

That's part of what hooked Hao Jiang of China, a senior at Plattsburgh State.

"The community is small and the people are friendly and my professors are friendly," he said. "Everyone is welcome and willing to give you a hand."

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Intentionally or not in order to compete you need to bring in these players. I understand what you are saying about Minnesota, and that would be great if the NY Junior teams were anything like the Minnesota HS teams.....teams outside of Plattsburgh and Oswego have a very limited budget for recruiting. Would you rather travel the 8 hours to Toronto and watch a big Junior tournament, or travel a full day out to Minnesota? What do you think your school is going to allow?? Like I said, if the NY HS system was 1/4 of what the Minnesota system is I would tend to agree with you, but its not. For many years the NY Junior system was a joke, but it has been getting better.

Remember up until 10-15 years ago Plattsburgh and Oswego were pretty much the only 2 SUNYAC school giving out bigger foregn packages, thus their dominance in SUNYAC. CollegeHockeyStats only goes back to the 1999-2000 season, but this is kind of interesting....

Based on the Final Regular Season standings.....

<table>														
	<TR><TD>	1999-2000	</TD><TD>	CAN	</TD><TD>	NY	</TD><TD>	2010-2011	</TD><TD>	CAN	</TD><TD>	NY	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	PLATTSBURGH	</TD><TD>	48	</TD><TD>	12	</TD><TD>	OSWEGO	</TD><TD>	61	</TD><TD>	15	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	POTSDAM	</TD><TD>	32	</TD><TD>	35	</TD><TD>	GENESEO	</TD><TD>	54	</TD><TD>	29	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	FREDONIA	</TD><TD>	0	</TD><TD>	39	</TD><TD>	BUFF STATE	</TD><TD>	26	</TD><TD>	40	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	OSWEGO	</TD><TD>	0	</TD><TD>	66	</TD><TD>	PLATTSBURGH	</TD><TD>	46	</TD><TD>	17	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	BROCKPORT	</TD><TD>	0	</TD><TD>	63	</TD><TD>	MORRISVILE	</TD><TD>	78	</TD><TD>	9	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	GENESEO	</TD><TD>	0	</TD><TD>	83	</TD><TD>	FREDONIA	</TD><TD>	38	</TD><TD>	38	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	CORTLAND	</TD><TD>	0	</TD><TD>	73	</TD><TD>	CORTLAND	</TD><TD>	0	</TD><TD>	52	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	BUFF STATE	</TD><TD>	4	</TD><TD>	56	</TD><TD>	POTSDAM	</TD><TD>	85	</TD><TD>	0	</TD></TR>	
	<TR><TD>	Morr. (06-07)	</TD><TD>	33	</TD><TD>	40	</TD><TD>	BROCKPORT	</TD><TD>	26	</TD><TD>	49	</TD></TR>	</table>

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Remy, you broke the thread.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Minnesota has 4 kids not from Minn on the roster.

That's better than an out of the conf playoff team like Potsdam loading up on Canadians with only 4 non-Canadian players on the roster.

You're missing the point. In the past, people from Minneosta thought they were so pure in a sort of Aryan way with their Minnesota only recuriting philosophy, that 1) any single player not coming from Minnesota would be considered recruiting the devil himself, and 2) when the team stopped being competitive and started bringing in non-Miinnesota recruits (and won a National Championship because of the change of philsophy), all was okay. It was hypocrisy at its worse.

The philosphy worked for Minneosta because it was the only game in town. The only other D1 program in the state at the time was Duluth, and it was considered common knowledge that Duluth only got "sloppy seconds" from the MN high school programs and it was easier for them to go across the border and recruit in Canada.

The only other state that produced players at the rate MN did at the time was Massachusetts. But, MA had four D1 schools in one city -- heck within walking distance of each other. There was no way they could divide up the MA talent and try to do what MN did successfully.

It was a unique situation that allowed U. of Minn. to do what they did successfully. Good for them. But for their fans -- and others -- to think they were some sort of puritan hockey gods while all others sinned before the crossed hockey sticks is a complete joke, at the very least, and a massive insult on everyone else's intelligence and need to stay competitive, at the worse.

 

[vcxc3200]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

http://http://www.sunyac.com/sports/2010/9/23/GEN_0923104333.aspx?id=11

Not only does potsdam get themselves in trouble, but they arent doing so hot in anything......

 

[Saints17]

Re: Potsdam Penalized by NCAA for Violating Financial Aid Rules

Actually vcxc3200, the mens lacrosse team finished in 2nd this season in the SUNYAC. They are hosting Geneseo tomorrow for a playoff game. No international students on the squad either.