PHF Purchased, Teams to Be Folded Into New PWHPA League

[ZedLeppelin]

The Miles Arnone interview is very illuminating

https://thehockeynews.com/womens/ph...phf-acquisition-pwhpa-animosity-and-much-more

After reading that (and wow, what a read), now it feels like the limit of six teams in this new league is more about keeping it small enough to be sure the league is filled with PWHPA players as much as possible, until they will begrudgingly have to fill any remaining spots with PHF players. How shortsighted it is to dump all the experience of the PHF management/coaches/staffs just because they were "the other guys". Who cares? If the advancement of women's hockey were the real inspiration for a new league, all that PHF experience would be welcomed by this new league. It looks more like a giant ego trip for King-Walters, among others.

 

[Lindsay]

As I said, Lindsay, I certainly hope you are right. But I feel like Russell Jaslow is likely more on the right track.

After reading the Miles Arnone interview, I feel even more pessimistic than ever about the situation. I think more girls coming out of college are just going to quit hockey. It's just not a sustainable living for most people. Which of course is ironic since that is what the PWHPA claimed they were fighting for. While we all agree that one league was and is necessary, this was just a huge step backwards for womens hockey. Like a decade backwards. And anyone reading the CBA right off the bat realized that the 3% wasn't even keeping up with inflation. So a girl 8 years from now will actually be getting paid less. I'm glad Arnone, who was on the inside, articulated what a lot of us were already thinking. Just a bummer that all of that progress by the PHF was for naught.

We will have to wait and see what transpires.

It’s sad to me that the narrative elsewhere has gotten so toxic so fast again. Definitely appreciate the respectful discourse here. I think Knox and Packer had it right with their positivity and diplomacy after the sale a couple weeks ago.

 

[Cornholio]

Would agree that there is as many open questions as before. Namely if this (yet another) new league will be able to generate enough revenue to support the players demands, or if some benefactor will come in and prop it up. Just me but I draw a very big line between the support given to the women's game at the youth and college level, and then what is considered pro. I've seen what athletics can do for young girls, teenagers and a goal to shoot for to the college ranks. But a pro league is supposed to be that - you want to make a career out of playing a sport, it needs to "sell itself" to generate enough revenue. Any money given to prop up a pro league is much better spent giving it to youth and even some college programs to broaden women's hockey participation, not give as salaries/benefits to a few at the top so they can keep playing beyond college. My read on that article is they are hoping for NHL support. I would hope the NHL, whatever money they can allocate to support the women's game, is directed at the youth level to get more girls playing. My 2-cents, maybe not the most popular opinion.

 

[PuckLover]

It looks more like a giant ego trip for King-Walters, among others.

Hard to imagine that came from anywhere other than Coyne/Knight/Nurse (why would BJK care…?). They’re the architects of the “destroy the PHF at all costs” vendetta. All very small and sad. I’m glad Arnone had the gumption to share all of this - it will be lost in the noise as this moves forward, but I’m still glad it’s out there.

 

[Scott_TG]

What I took from Arnone's interview, granted his perspective is from the PHF, is that the PWHPA cares not for women's hockey as a whole, but keeping the North American professional level reserved to a small-select in-crowd associated with the Canadian and US national programs.

All of the best ways to accomplish this is how this shook out: one small league with wages not likely to meet the living needs of players without other sources of income (national team money and high level endorsements only available to thw Olympian set), a direct tie to the NHL, and the history of any other way of doing business crushed.

 

[Still Eeyore]

But I don't think Roger Goodell is making personnel decisions on every, single team. Different owners and different coaches in other leagues allow for difference of opinion.

Ask Colin Kaepernick about this.

 

[BowWowWow]

I feel the salary minimums in the CBA are somewhat underrated. They are expected to be higher in the new league than they were expected at any time to be in the PHF for what that's worth.

- In the PHF, minimums per team were $30k for 20 players, and $13.5k for 2-5 others, as reported in April by TIG and Melissa Burgess.
- In the new league, the minimums per team are $80k for 6 players, $35k for 17 others, and $15k each for the reserves beyond that.

The salary distributions that we can expect are unclear, though. Each team has to achieve a $55k average, though they might do so by paying a few players substantially above the $80k rate and most closer to $35k. Given that only 9 players can be paid at league minimum per team (according to reports of the CBA), perhaps some players could be paid only $500 more than that minimum? Alternatively, more evenly, the average would work out if 9 players are paid $80k and 17 are paid $46-46.5k. (Reportedly, no one on the Riveters or Pride was making close to PHF minimum; it's unclear that the new league will follow those teams' model.) The concern about the 3% yearly raise with inflation remains valid.

In this new article about potential players to build teams around, I am glad that the author Emily Sadler mentions both Keller and Mueller (along with Poulin, Knight, Nurse, Heise, and Desbiens). As in Vicb's fantasy team on the Women's Worlds thread, I think that if you pick Mueller you also need to pick Aurard as they're great together.

 

[MAHOCKEY FAN]

I have followed the Boston Pride for 8 years and gone to over 30 games. While I hate the league name…..they really put on a good show. Go to a Saturday game and the place was packed with girls teams attending. sundays were more difficult due to the girls leagues playing on Sundays. Getting the games on ESPN+ was a real win vs the Twitch years….although the side commentary was fun.

So one league was always the dream. The pwhpa constantly complained that the league didn’t have safety, or insurance, or good enough salaries. When these were addressed it still wasn’t enough for these women. They were absolute snobs insisting only they knew how to do it right. …but they were incapable of putting together anything substainable themselves. Many women put their trust in this leadership….and waited. Now many of them along with phf players will be ending their careers.

funny how you buyout the league that does everything wrong. And have been publicly insulted the other league.

no Boston team is ridiculous….when it comes to fans….look at USA hockey registrations…MA is a hotbed along with Minnesota….you need fans….there is a solid base in Boston.

1 league is great.
these women are entitled snobs. Obviously no Boston team so difficult to attend…..but I will not be a fan.

I just read Miles interview…..and stand by everything I said. This will be a new league for the Olympic players and there will be no room for the players or staff who BUilt the first PAID women’s hockey league…..

 

[Lindsay]

I feel the salary minimums in the CBA are somewhat underrated. They are expected to be higher in the new league than they were expected at any time to be in the PHF for what that's worth.

- In the PHF, minimums per team were $30k for 20 players, and $13.5k for 2-5 others, .

Yes. $53,000 per year in PW league when you add in the housing allowance.

I think the energy is better spent on pushing for almost immediate expansion.

 

[BowWowWow]

Yes. $53,000 per year in PW league when you add in the housing allowance.

I think the energy is better spent on pushing for almost immediate expansion.

I agree about expansion. An important part about the housing allowance turns out to be: “Housing stipends will be paid to cover pre-season & at least one week beyond the end of the team's season” (from Melissa Burgess). (Reports are that this is standard for many leagues.)

 

[Lindsay]

I agree about expansion. An important part about the housing allowance turns out to be: “Housing stipends will be paid to cover pre-season & at least one week beyond the end of the team's season” (from Melissa Burgess). (Reports are that this is standard for many leagues.)

Ahh good point on the housing allowance

 

[HockeyGuy362]

Yes. $53,000 per year in PW league when you add in the housing allowance.

I think the energy is better spent on pushing for almost immediate expansion.

How are they affording all this. Housing allowance, $23k per player, 6 teams, 28 players per team(with practice players). 23,000*6*28=$3,864,000 in housing allowance alone. Salaries are $1,100,000 per team, or $6,600,000 total. So combined, before meal stipend, moving allowances, health insurance, travel costs, coaches, staffing, they are at $10,464,000, am I doing my math correctly?

 

[HockeyGuy362]

How are they affording all this. Housing allowance, $23k per player, 6 teams, 28 players per team(with practice players). 23,000*6*28=$3,864,000 in housing allowance alone. Salaries are $1,100,000 per team, or $6,600,000 total. So combined, before meal stipend, moving allowances, health insurance, travel costs, coaches, staffing, they are at $10,464,000, am I doing my math correctly?

Also, if doing my math correctly.
6 teams
16 home games(assume 32 game season)
96 total home games
2000 fans per game
192,000 fans
$20 average ticket price

$3,840,000 in total revenue

Also forgot in my previous email, cost doesn't include ice team. And my math was wrong, should be $3,840,000 for housing allowance.

 

[Lindsay]

Deleted, double posted

 

[Lindsay]

How are they affording all this. ?

As I understand it Mark and Kimbra Walters identify as philanthropists. They also have a wnba team and recently put money into squash (the sport, not the vegetable). Mark is worth $5.5 billion dollars according to Forbes.

Even if he put $250 million dollars into this league we are talking about 4.5% of his unfathomably large net worth.

The women have an 8 year CBA signed with his company.

So, and I’m not being a smart ass when I say this because I’m not a union guru—— but I think the signed CBA means this has to be supported for 8 years. And so for 8 years the women don’t have to worry about their league folding/ dissolving overnight which has happened maybe 4 times in the last 2 decades (old nw, wwhl, cwhl, PHF).

Having a wealthy owner is not to say the league and supporters shouldn’t do everything they can do to drive revenue, sponsorships, and television rights sales. I’ll have to go Re read it but it seems like Arnone thinks that stuff will happen.

 

[BowWowWow]

How are they affording all this. Housing allowance, $23k per player, 6 teams, 28 players per team(with practice players). 23,000*6*28=$3,864,000 in housing allowance alone. Salaries are $1,100,000 per team, or $6,600,000 total. So combined, before meal stipend, moving allowances, health insurance, travel costs, coaches, staffing, they are at $10,464,000, am I doing my math correctly?

Specifically, the housing allowance is probably about $7,500 per player this first year, I think ($1,500 per month starting in the preseason, Nov 2023, going through about the month the season ends - March 2024?). The salaries per team may be a bit more, though, with a $55k average for 23 players, along with $15k each for 5 players: I believe $1.34 million per team.

On Lindsay's point about sponsorships and TV, I think that these are mentioned in the interview too as ways to make a profit even the next couple years, after some large investment.

 

[Still Eeyore]

The women have an 8 year CBA signed with his company.

So, and I’m not being a smart *** when I say this because I’m not a union guru—— but I think the signed CBA means this has to be supported for 8 years. And so for 8 years the women don’t have to worry about their league folding/ dissolving overnight which has happened maybe 4 times in the last 2 decades (old nw, wwhl, cwhl, PHF).

The league could declare bankruptcy, and that would most likely nullify the CBA. I'd be shocked if the league isn't incorporated as a separate entity from the Walters' other holdings and their personal wealth. One of the major benefits of a corporate structure is limited liability. A corporation's shareholders are never on the hook for more than the money they have already invested in a corporation. The only significant exception to that is if they take out a loan and the creditors ask for a personal guarantee, but that doesn't apply to a collective bargaining agreement.

They can stop worrying about the league folding only to the extent that they trust Walters to throw in more money if there are problems, but he's under no legal obligation to do so, unless the league is not incorporated, and he doesn't have limited liability.

 

[Lindsay]

The league could declare bankruptcy, and that would most likely nullify the CBA.

They can stop worrying about the league folding only to the extent that they trust Walters to throw in more money if there are problems, but he's under no legal obligation to do so, unless the league is not incorporated, and he doesn't have limited liability.

Ahh very helpful on the above, thanks Eeyore. Understood it will be done separately from other holdings and personal wealth, my point is simply that there is money there if it is needed, and as you have clarified, if the Walters want to keep supporting.

 

[Cornholio]

I'd be willing to bet that the non-gate revenue for the league amounts (and will in the future) to very little additional revenue. As reference, all other non-NHL leagues are very heavily gate-dependent for revenue. Even the NHL has a large gate component. Their TV contracts are no where on the level of the NFL, NBA, etc. The finances of this league is no different than before. The only way this league stays afloat with the expenses they have is a deep-pocketed benefactor of some kind. How long they are willing to fund for whatever return they are expecting is to be seen. As so well documented above, those salaries far exceed what anyone in the ECHL makes, and is even good for a lot of AHL players. Those leagues draw on average about 4000 fans a game, and even with that, a lot of ECHL teams operate at a loss (it is more of a vanity project for the owner than an actual business).

 

[BowWowWow]

Thanks very much for the comparisons, Cornholio. I agree that it is especially useful to look at other hockey leagues.

As far as other sports with women's leagues, the annual sponsorship revenue of the National Women's Soccer League is estimated around $26 million (according to this GlobalData summary - not that I'm sure what that source is or what they say about TV deals or gate revenue!). Of course, that is a well-established league with 12 teams.

According to The Hockey News' Ian Kennedy, ownership is telling players that cities are expected to be chosen for the new hockey league later this week. Hailey Salvian also gave a SportsNet Today interview in which at the end she anticipated either an entry draft or drafting some players and deciding other destinations by free agency.