Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I wasn't here in '84, but the evidence is pretty clear;

From the Icers website:

1982-83 16-12-1 Jon Shellington National Runner-Up
1983-84 24-15-1 Jon Shellington ACHA National Champions
1984-85 20-11-2 Jon Shellington National Runner-Up

And add me to those who think that UAH got hosed!

It looks like a "Banner-gate" scandal to me. Someone obviously created a false banner given that the ACHA was far from taking shape at that time. As I understand it, the next-year tournament site was decided at the end of each tournament with the winner getting first "shot" at hosting. That's how the 1983 tournament came to Huntsville after UAH won the 1982 tournament. That means PSU would have participated in the 1984 site decision after the 1983 tournament. After winning the tournament in 1985, ND State went on to also win championships in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1993, & 1994. See http://achahockey.org/page.php?page_id=2187 and http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams/default.asp?u=NDSUHOCKEY&t=c&s=hockey&p=records to see how that meshes with the ACHA.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

It looks like a "Banner-gate" scandal to me. Someone obviously created a false banner given that the ACHA was far from taking shape at that time. As I understand it, the next-year tournament site was decided at the end of each tournament with the winner getting first "shot" at hosting. That's how the 1983 tournament came to Huntsville after UAH won the 1982 tournament. That means PSU would have participated in the 1984 site decision after the 1983 tournament. After winning the tournament in 1985, ND State went on to also win championships in 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1993, & 1994. See http://achahockey.org/page.php?page_id=2187 and http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams/default.asp?u=NDSUHOCKEY&t=c&s=hockey&p=records to see how that meshes with the ACHA.

Our webmaster, Rodney Martin, passed this info along to me:

I know that when the ACHA was formed, it recognized all the previous winners of the National Invitational Tournament. That is why it is considered an “ACHA” championship.

Our history book indicates that, indeed, Penn State lost to UAH by a score of 4-3 in the 1983 NIT in Huntsville. The next season has us winning the 1984 NIT in Arizona, 7-5 over Arizona.

 

[wsp67326]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Perplexing, I must say. I don't mean to open up some sort of Pandora's Box, but this is rather odd, at least to me. Considering UAH beat both PSU and Arizona at the 1983 tournament, and, being the winner in 1983, selected as the host for the tournament in 1984 (and, winning that one, hosting again in 1985; NDSU took over the hosting after that, winning it in 1985), the tournament for which PSU claims to be the National Champions in 1984 may have been an actual NIT-type event (as the PSU webmaster seems to have noted). In all seriousness, the official Club Hockey Championship was in Huntsville that year, not in Tucson. I know, it's been a long while since 1984, but, well, we Charger fans have to hold on to what we do have from the past. No offense intended to the PSU program, of course. And, again, I wish them the best as the enter DI.

Terry, either you or Douglas had photos of the programs, etc., from the tournaments on one of the threads on this site. Any chance we could get those linked here?

 

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I'm in the position of more or less having to believe what I'm told when it comes to anything that happened in 1984 (I was 4), so I don't really have much other than "I was told we beat Arizona for the 1984 national championship" lol. Fascinating stuff from all of you, sincerely appreciated by this history geek. It's just unfortunate that so much of it has been lost except to the memories of the few who lived it.

I do know that the ACHA banners were updates of previous banners that said "National Invitation Tournament Champions" done because of the ACHA recognition of those and for uniformity's sake with 1998 and 2000-2003. For whatever that's worth.

 

[owslachief]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

That's a well-made recruiting video. Star power.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Our webmaster, Rodney Martin, passed this info along to me:

"I know that when the ACHA was formed, it recognized all the previous winners of the National Invitational Tournament. That is why it is considered an “ACHA” championship.

Our history book indicates that, indeed, Penn State lost to UAH by a score of 4-3 in the 1983 NIT in Huntsville. The next season has us winning the 1984 NIT in Arizona, 7-5 over Arizona. "

See
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/
for scans of the 1983, 1984, and 1985 National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship program covers.

Note that the 1984 program cover even has the regional champions identified. If PSU won any "championship" in AZ, it was without these regional champions.

 

[beaverhockeyfan]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

It is beginning to look like there were two different "club" National Titles back then. Looks like UAH has claim to US National Collegiate Club Hockey Championships while Penn State has claim to the National Invitational Club Hockey Tournament. Looks like you had to win some league to be in the US National Collegiate Club Tournament, while the National Invitational Tournament was by invite.

Kind of like hoops has the NCAA Bracket and the NIT Bracket.

 

[bignick33]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I haven't really been following this that closely, although I'm very happy for PSU and I think it's a good thing for college hockey in general. Have you guys began to design the arena? Are there any renderings or details online anywhere?

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

...
Kind of like hoops has the NCAA Bracket and the NIT Bracket.

That's better expressed as the NCAA Championship Tournament and Consolation National Invitational Tournament. The winner of the NIT has trouble claiming to be any better than 66th.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I haven't really been following this that closely, although I'm very happy for PSU and I think it's a good thing for college hockey in general. Have you guys began to design the arena? Are there any renderings or details online anywhere?

Nothing official yet. The architects and construction management company were in town all last week for meetings. Core sample drilling at the site is underway.

This shows the location of the arena

 

[Happy]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

That's better expressed as the NCAA Championship Tournament and Consolation National Invitational Tournament. The winner of the NIT has trouble claiming to be any better than 66th.

In the past, it was the opposite, with teams skipping the NCAA to play NIT. but that was half a decade ago.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

In the past, it was the opposite, with teams skipping the NCAA to play NIT. but that was half a <strike>decade</strike> CENTURY ago.

I think you meant this.

 

[joecct]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Nothing official yet. The architects and construction management company were in town all last week for meetings. Core sample drilling at the site is underway.

This shows the location of the arena

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

I would think that they would stagger the events so that they're not all going on at the same time. It would be pretty easy to schedule the Basketball games for the early afternoon, and then have the saturday night game at 7 or so. Most schools don't have hoops on Friday night, only in a blue moon or its Tournement Time. You could easily have the Men's bball tip off at 1, women's BBall at 3, and you would still have plenty of time for the hockey crowd to show up and tailgate.

 

[moose97]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

I would think that they would stagger the events so that they're not all going on at the same time. It would be pretty easy to schedule the Basketball games for the early afternoon, and then have the saturday night game at 7 or so. Most schools don't have hoops on Friday night, only in a blue moon or its Tournement Time. You could easily have the Men's bball tip off at 1, women's BBall at 3, and you would still have plenty of time for the hockey crowd to show up and tailgate.

The University of Minnesota's basketball and hockey rinks are at least as close to each other (across the street), so I can't imagine it'd be a problem with scheduling, especially if the BTHC came about and the could co-ordinate these things better than in seperate conferences...

 

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

It is beginning to look like there were two different "club" National Titles back then. Looks like UAH has claim to US National Collegiate Club Hockey Championships while Penn State has claim to the National Invitational Club Hockey Tournament. Looks like you had to win some league to be in the US National Collegiate Club Tournament, while the National Invitational Tournament was by invite.

Kind of like hoops has the NCAA Bracket and the NIT Bracket.

Now that it's being talked about, I actually remember looking at one of our older programs a (really) long time ago, and it listed two different national champions for several years in the early and mid 80s. The NIT "won," so to speak, and was the only national championship by the end of the 80s - our 1990 championship was also an NIT and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody's ever challenged our claim to it.

I'm not positive about this, but I believe PSU was between conference affiliations in 1984, so the nature of the USNCCHC's selection might explain why we were in the other one.

 

[bignick33]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

If the hockey and hoops teams are home on the same weekend, will there be enough parking?

I bet that they'll just stagger the scheduling. BC's hoops and hockey teams share an arena, and it's not an issue.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Now that it's being talked about, I actually remember looking at one of our older programs a (really) long time ago, and it listed two different national champions for several years in the early and mid 80s. The NIT "won," so to speak, and was the only national championship by the end of the 80s - our 1990 championship was also an NIT and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody's ever challenged our claim to it.

I'm not positive about this, but I believe PSU was between conference affiliations in 1984, so the nature of the USNCCHC's selection might explain why we were in the other one.

Note that Miami and OH were both invited to the USNCCHC as independents. The "other one" appears to be nothing more than AZ inviting PSU to visit Tucson for some games after neither qualified for the USNCCHC. That makes the claim of being "1984 ACHA National Champions" just plain silly on multiple levels, no matter how long the claim has been made.

 

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Note that Miami and OH were both invited to the USNCCHC as independents. The "other one" appears to be nothing more than AZ inviting PSU to visit Tucson for some games after neither qualified for the USNCCHC. That makes the claim of being "1984 ACHA National Champions" just plain silly on multiple levels, no matter how long the claim has been made.

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. You say it was a consolation tournament, like basketball's NIT. I say it could have been a number of things. Maybe there was a disagreement between two factions over something or other (given what you've said, site selection seems like a possibility), and a subset of club schools started a second tournament more in line with what they wanted to happen.

What's silly to me is not recognizing that things like this happen in an underregulated environment (see pre-BCS major college football). Who selected teams for the USNCCHC and (according to you) deemed Miami and Ohio the most worthy independents, and on what basis did they do so of the presumably numerous candidates? The current ACHA field is based on a poll, I have to assume there wasn't one back then. Who awarded UAH - or PSU, for that matter - the trophy at the end of the thing? Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments?

 

[wsp67326]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. You say it was a consolation tournament, like basketball's NIT. I say it could have been a number of things. Maybe there was a disagreement between two factions over something or other (given what you've said, site selection seems like a possibility), and a subset of club schools started a second tournament more in line with what they wanted to happen.

What's silly to me is not recognizing that things like this happen in an underregulated environment (see pre-BCS major college football). Who selected teams for the USNCCHC and (according to you) deemed Miami and Ohio the most worthy independents, and on what basis did they do so of the presumably numerous candidates? The current ACHA field is based on a poll, I have to assume there wasn't one back then. Who awarded UAH - or PSU, for that matter - the trophy at the end of the thing? Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments?

It's just a mystifying issue to me. I certainly didn't mean to come across as sniping, but, well, it was such a bizarre claim that I had to inquire about the seeds of such a claim from PSU's perspective. I have no idea what happened, I just know that UAH was the dominant collegiate club hockey team of the early 80s and to see another team make a claim to its accomplishments was puzzling (and, well, a bit offensive, I have to admit; though it's not really a huge deal in the scheme of things). In terms of 1984, though, Northern Arizona was the champion of the Rocky Mountain Club Hockey League (or whatever it was called then), the same league of which Arizona was a member. Back then the leagues had actual standings and, at least prior to that time, actual conference tournaments, so whoever was considered league champion was chosen for the tournament, to my recollection. I don't think PSU was in a league, actually, way back when, and probably functioned in an independent status at that time (much like the football team in the same timeframe). The prior year PSU apparently received sufficient support to be selected to the National Championship tournament. I don't know what would have happened thereafter. Considering, as well, that UAH took 3 of 4 from PSU that season, and Miami was, for all intents and purposes, the top "ranked" team at that time (I believe they entered the tournament undefeated, if memory serves)(home ice advantage was HUGE in the final game of the championship that year, not from a refereeing perspective, but the fans were very vocal and supportive), the six teams that were participants in the tournament that year were the top club teams in the country that year, without question. I can't explain the ACHA's ultimate position (UAH left club hockey after the 1985 tournament which, again, North Dakota State, won) in terms of what "tournament" was more important, or whatever, either. Just a puzzling thing to see from my (our) standpoint, if that makes sense. I'm sure there is someone at the ACHA that could shed some light on this. (And yes, this is my fault for opening up some a topic of conversation.) We UAH supporters do have a collective chip on our shoulder, again, admittedly, about the treatment our program has received lately, and any perceived denigration of the program's accomplishments (no matter how long ago) just pushes the wrong buttons, I suppose. I greatly appreciate your support for our team's plight. We greatly support PSU's entry into DI, too, as I've noted. Cheers.