Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

[Happy]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. You say it was a consolation tournament, like basketball's NIT. I say it could have been a number of things. Maybe there was a disagreement between two factions over something or other (given what you've said, site selection seems like a possibility), and a subset of club schools started a second tournament more in line with what they wanted to happen.

What's silly to me is not recognizing that things like this happen in an underregulated environment (see pre-BCS major college football). Who selected teams for the USNCCHC and (according to you) deemed Miami and Ohio the most worthy independents, and on what basis did they do so of the presumably numerous candidates? The current ACHA field is based on a poll, I have to assume there wasn't one back then. Who awarded UAH - or PSU, for that matter - the trophy at the end of the thing? Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments?

Whatever you do, don't mention any of this to a UND fan, they will ram 7>0 down your throat for a thousand years, and don't forget it.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first? ...

Regarding "yours", I take absolutely no ownership in it. It was what it was, the National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament. Regarding "die off", there's no indication that it "died off" at all. After North Dakota State won the 1985 tournament in Huntsville, they then went on to win it each year until PSU finally won it in 1990.
The NDSU and ACHA websites mesh quite nicely regarding that chain of history with the creation of the ACHA in 1991.
http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams/default.asp?u=NDSUHOCKEY&t=c&s=hockey&p=records
http://achahockey.org/page.php?page_id=2187

... Also, let's be honest, neither of us knows the exact circumstances behind the second tournament. ...

Likewise, there's nothing to indicate that there were any more than two teams in that "tournament". You might be able to find some game records on that subject though.

... Why are fans of a program with NCAA-sanctioned national championships sniping at us over a club championship from almost 30 years ago, especially when we're willing to sit back, learn some history, and respect your accomplishments? ...

Nobody is "sniping" at anything. Having an appreciation for history, it's relevant to remind people that there was no ACHA in 1984. Given that fact, I'd be embarrassed to have a banner alluding to such hanging in my barn. I look at it as telling a friend that their "fly is open".

It's also relevant for historical accuracy to provide records/images that clearly show a chain of continuity.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs
If I was interested in PSU hockey history and felt that there was any justifiable claim to "National" championships back then, the following questions would be gnawing at me:
1. Were there any more than two teams at the games in AZ?
2. With AZ and PSU both being part of the "process" in 1982 and 1983, what led to their not honoring it in 1984 and 1985?
3. Given that the established process had the established 1984 National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament being played elsewhere, what justification was given for claiming that the AZ games had any "National" relevance?
4. If the AZ games had any "National" relevance, why were the Midwest Collegiate Hockey Association Champions, , the Central States Collegiate Hockey League Champions, the Mid Central Collegiate Hockey Association Champions, and especially the Rocky Mountain Collegiate Hockey Association Champions not there?

I'm glad I'm not a PSU fan, because I could see myself wasting a lot time researching those questions. As it is, I spent more time than I wanted with this (curse you wsp67326 ); but I did enjoy the research.

 

[Patman]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

So if our tournament is "the other one," why did yours die off first?

I really hope this isn't what we have to deal with in a Penn State era. Revisionist history is so much fun.

 

[UML]

In the past, it was the opposite, with teams skipping the NCAA to play NIT. but that was half a decade ago.

Thats probably how Holy Cross won an NCAA championship in bouncy.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

For the historical record, I've added a few more scans to go along with the cover pages.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/1983ClubNatChampProgPage3.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/1984ClubNatChampPreProg.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/1985ClubNatChampProgPage28.jpg

 

[wsp67326]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

For the historical record, I've added a few more scans to go along with the cover pages.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/1983ClubNatChampProgPage3.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/1984ClubNatChampPreProg.jpg
http://home.hiwaay.net/~plong/*tnl_hockey_images/programs/1985ClubNatChampProgPage28.jpg

With PSU "under consideration" for the 1984 championship tournament, it seems evident that whatever tournament occurred in Tucson was a consolation one, at best. It would not surprise me, though, if the ACHA decided to allow PSU to claim that consolation tournament to be on-par with the actual National Championship as a way to appease one of the biggest club hockey programs in place in 1991 (with UAH departing club hockey for bigger things after the 1985 National Tournament, that is). An auspicious claim, obviously. Oh well.

Terry, I feel the curse; it's quite uncomfortable. If I make it to exhibition games in March, we'll have to meet. I'll let you know.

 

[texashockeycoach]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I think after this season, PSU should take a trip to Huntsville and play UAH.

The prize!?!?! the 1984 Championship

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I think after this season, PSU should take a trip to Huntsville and play UAH.

The prize!?!?! the 1984 Championship

Maybe they should make it a yearly contest, with the 84 banners a traveling trophy between the 2 programs.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I think after this season, PSU should take a trip to Huntsville and play UAH.

The prize!?!?! the 1984 Championship

Works for me. Does it count that former Chargers goalie Blake MacNichol backstopped Ohio to 3 of 4 wins against the Icers this season? Nah - guess not.

 

[wsp67326]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I think after this season, PSU should take a trip to Huntsville and play UAH.

The prize!?!?! the 1984 Championship

I like the thought of having PSU come down to the Rocket City. But don't lose track of their claim of the Chargers' 1985 National Runner-Up status, too. How about the winner get a place in the CCHA, instead?

 

[wsp67326]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Maybe they should make it a yearly contest, with the 84 banners a traveling trophy between the 2 programs.

As far as I remember, the only banners the Boys in Blue display are in relation to their NCAA Div II Championships. Just for clarification. Who hates Bemidji? Well, honestly, I don't. Love the CHAers!!! And, again, welcome to DI Icers! It's great to see expansion at this level... just don't want to see UAH be the next casualty.

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

... Just for clarification. Who hates Bemidji? Well, honestly, I don't. Love the CHAers!!! ....

http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/

Know Your Ice from a Hole in the Ground

Coming to you this week from the John S. Glas Fieldhouse in Bemidji, Minnesota, a live broadcast performance of A Prairie Home Companion. With Special Guests, Rhonda Vincent & The Rage, jazz guitarist Sam Miltich, and the diva of the Dakotas, vocalist Andra Suchy. Also with us, the Royal Academy of Radio Acting; Tim Russell, Sue Scott, and Tom Keith, Richard Dworsky and The Guy's All-Star Shoe Band, and the latest News from Lake Wobegon.

 

[4four4]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Just a hunch, I bet the PSU job pays the same as the OSU job.

 

[Sean Pickett]

1984 Club Championship

1984 Club Championship

So I did a little research myself and I found the following articles in Penn State’s student newspaper, The Daily Collegian, online at the <a href= http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Skins/collegian/Client.asp?skin=collegian&AppName=2&AW=1297556529859>Penn State Historical Digital Collegian Archive</a>. An <a href=http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1984/03/02&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01200&ViewMode=GIF>article from 2 March 1984</a> doesn’t explain why the team is going to a different tournament, but it states: “The ice hockey team will face offwith Colorado State next Thursday in the first round of the National Hockey Club Championships in Tuscon, Ariz.” Later in the article its states: “The Lions finished second in the championships last year, but none of the teams in that competition are scheduled to be in Tuscon.” From the article it appears that this was a round robin format tournament played 8-10 March 1984 and included Penn State, Colorado State, Marquette and host Arizona. Another <a href= http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1984/03/14&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01400&ViewMode=GIF>article from 14 March 1984</a> recaps the team’s victory in the tournament, but doesn’t mention anything about why they played in it.

I have both searched and browsed the paper’s digital archives, but I was not able to find an article that mentioned being invited to the tournament. However the <a href=http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1984/02/17&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01800&ViewMode=GIF>preview of the weekend series</a> from 17 Feburary 1984 ends with a mention of traveling to Tuscon for the the tournament and the other three teams. That mean that Penn State was invited and accepted before that date. Furthermore, Penn State was swept by Ohio Univeristy, which remained undefeated at the time, on 20-21 January 1984.

I was not able to find a similar digital archives for the Arizona Daily Wildcat, but the <a href=http://web.me.com/uaicecats/Site/Welcome.html>Wildcat Icers website</a> does have a (poor) history section that shows that they won the Pacific Ice Hockey Conference playoffs (at least I think that is what it states) and came in second in the(ir) National Tournament.

I also found articles previewing and recapping the Penn State-Alamaba Crimson Tide (!) series played in Huntsville <a href=http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1983/11/18&PageLabelPrint=&ForceGif=true&EntityId=Ar01400&ViewMode=GIF>from 18 November 1983 (preview)</a> and <a href=http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1983/11/22&PageLabelPrint=&ForceGif=true&EntityId=Ar01100&ViewMode=GIF>from 22 Noevmber 1983 (recap)</a> and the rematches in Johnstown, PA <a href= http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1983/12/09&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar02200&ViewMode=GIF> from 9 December 1983 (preview)</a> and <a href= http://digitalnewspapers.libraries.psu.edu/Default/Scripting/ArticleWin.asp?From=Archive&Source=Page&Skin=collegian&BaseHref=DCG/1983/12/12&PageLabelPrint=&EntityId=Ar01300&ViewMode=GIF>12 December 1983 (recap – which correctly identifies the team as Alabama-Huntsville).</a>

I also checked the digital archives for March 1985 articles about Penn State in a national tournament and there are two, a preview and recap. It the tournament was played at Northwestern and it appears that Penn State, Arizona, Marquette and although not mentioned I would think Northwestern were the four teams. The Collegian’s online website has articles back to 1988 and I found articles about Penn State finishing fourth in 1988 National Club Hockey Championships, winning the 1990 NIT championship and playing in the round robin of the 1991 NIT (another article mentioned they did not play in any club championship in 1989).

Sean

 

[tnlong]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

That's some great research!

... Furthermore, Penn State was swept by Ohio Univeristy, which remained undefeated at the time, on 20-21 January 1984.

I was not able to find a similar digital archives for the Arizona Daily Wildcat, but the <a href=http://web.me.com/uaicecats/Site/Welcome.html>Wildcat Icers website</a> does have a (poor) history section that shows that they won the Pacific Ice Hockey Conference playoffs (at least I think that is what it states) and came in second in the(ir) National Tournament.
...

http://web.me.com/uaicecats/Site/History_files/Post Season Tournament Stats.pdf
AZ's "Pacific" conference appears to be a subset of the "Rockey Mountain" conference (from prior year notes). With the sweep of PSU by OH and with N. AZ winning the "Rocky Mountain" conference, it's obvious why PSU and Az were usurped by OH and N. AZ respectively in being invited to the National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament.

... If I was interested in PSU hockey history and felt that there was any justifiable claim to "National" championships back then, the following questions would be gnawing at me:
1. Were there any more than two teams at the games in AZ?
2. With AZ and PSU both being part of the "process" in 1982 and 1983, what led to their not honoring it in 1984 and 1985?
3. Given that the established process had the established 1984 National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament being played elsewhere, what justification was given for claiming that the AZ games had any "National" relevance?
4. If the AZ games had any "National" relevance, why were the Midwest Collegiate Hockey Association Champions, , the Central States Collegiate Hockey League Champions, the Mid Central Collegiate Hockey Association Champions, and especially the Rocky Mountain Collegiate Hockey Association Champions not there?
...

Ok, it looks like question 1 is answered.

The answer to question 2 appears to be obvious (if you can't qualify for the established national championship tournament, ...), but I'd sure like to see the stated reason. I do know that I'm cursing Rich Bradley (", but none of the teams in that competition are scheduled to be in Tuscon”) for not stating "why".

Questions 3 and 4 as perplexing as ever, however. At least we now know answers may lie in archives at CO State, AZ, Marquette, and/or Northwestern.

Unfortunately, the following new questions have arisen:
How did Northwestern get into the "tournament" mix?
What other NDSU National Championships are claimed by other schools after AZ claiming it in 1985?

 

[Red Cows]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Penn State fan, as a long time UNO season ticket holder, all I can say is, be careful what you wish for:

http://thankyouterry.blogspot.com/2011/02/head-coach-candidate-mike-kemp.html

Mike Kemp is a great guy, but............

 

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I really hope this isn't what we have to deal with in a Penn State era. Revisionist history is so much fun.

It's not "revisionist history" to acknowledge that there are a lot of unknowns in play here - all I'm really saying is that nobody, myself included, has all the facts of the situation. Any issues with what it says on the banner should be taken up with the ACHA, who doesn't have a problem with us calling ourselves their 1984 national champions. Or Arizona in 1985.

It's club hockey from before it was a pretty legitimate enterprise. That's all that should need to be said about it.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

It's not "revisionist history" to acknowledge that there are a lot of unknowns in play here - all I'm really saying is that nobody, myself included, has all the facts of the situation. Any issues with what it says on the banner should be taken up with the ACHA, who doesn't have a problem with us calling ourselves their 1984 national champions. Or Arizona in 1985.

Actually it is revisionist history as the ACHA did not exist. It does not matter if the ACHA is 'OK' with it or not. The banner should say NIT Champions or NIT National Champions.

Sean

 

[Scally Lama]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

Regarding "yours", I take absolutely no ownership in it. It was what it was, the National Collegiate Club Hockey Championship tournament. Regarding "die off", there's no indication that it "died off" at all. After North Dakota State won the 1985 tournament in Huntsville, they then went on to win it each year until PSU finally won it in 1990.
The NDSU and ACHA websites mesh quite nicely regarding that chain of history with the creation of the ACHA in 1991.
http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams/default.asp?u=NDSUHOCKEY&t=c&s=hockey&p=records
http://achahockey.org/page.php?page_id=2187

I like you guys too much to keep going on about this, but just wanted to clarify this point: Penn State won the NIT in 1990, not the NCCHC:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/archive/1990/03/03-05-90tdc/03-05-90dsports-07.asp

So the NIT title is what's being merged into the ACHA history on their website, not the NCCHC. As far as I know, there's no NCCHC champion for 1990, hence my assertion that it "died first." Like I mentioned before, I have seen old PSU programs that listed two national champions for a brief stretch before going back to one. I really wish I didn't live in godforsaken Ohio so I could snap a quick picture of it. If there is a NCCHC champion for 1990, it's not noted by the ACHA.

Here's an article that mentions NDSU's participation in the 1991 NIT:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu:8080/archive/1991/02/02-27-91tdc/02-27-91dsports-01.asp

Basically, it's the NIT results that are considered by the ACHA. As for NDSU's site, I assume that they simply didn't note the change in tournaments and considered whichever they were in to be the "real" national championship, much like the PSU site doesn't make that distinction between 1983 and 1984.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Penn State - Division I Hockey 2.0

I like you guys too much to keep going on about this.

Please keep going on. I really enjoy the history and want to learn why there were two tournaments (I have my own totally unsupported theory), as well as what happened to the NCCHC.

Sean