Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

[Terrierbyassociation]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Hey nothing to stop you from having a side beer or three to stay game ready if your on a hot streak.

Seriously. But I'm ultra competitive. Winning > Drinking.

Winning while drinking > Losing while drinking any time.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Amen. Its not that its a sport I just don't like (i.e. field hockey), its not even something thats on the fringe like figure skating, which may or may not qualify but at least requires some form of athletic ability. Its an excuse to get drunk, but so is Beirut/Beer Pong, and that hasn't made the games yet.

The role of the IOC is surprisingly limited. The committee decides eligibility (which is of significantly less importance than it was during the cold war), the standards for the medals, the location of the games and the program. The IOC does not conduct the competitions, the sports federations do. An Olympics can correctly be seen as a simultaneous world championship of many sports.

The highest accomplishment for any sport or near sport is to be included on the Olympic program and the non-Olympic associations work tirelessly to be included. And the ones on the bubble work tirelessly to remain on the program. And the program is always in flux, with events being added and eliminated (baseball, softball).

In recent years we've seen expansions of both the winter and summer programs, and each sport that's added raises the costs of these events dramatically. Construction of white water canoeing courses, half pipes and all the rest have bloated the Olympics almost to the point of being unrecognizable. And while some sports used to be conducted outside (speed skating, swimming) those event must now be conducted in new, purpose built facilities, which also adds to the cost. In some cases, like Alpine skiing, events have been added to give great downhill racers a chance at more medals (Bode Miller) without necessarily requiring new and separate facilities. Skeleton has recently been added but uses the luge/bob sled course.

Certainly anyone laboring anonymously in the vineyard of a very small sport, like skeleton, has to be thrilled at the prospect of world wide TV coverage and an Olympic medal. Who wouldn't be? So the IOC's most important decisions these days, apart from where to place the games, are what events will be on the program. That's where these discussions of ball room dancing and other pseudo-sports come from. And the IOC, I think, finds itself in the position of saying "no" to very dedicated energetic people who want their sport to have the Olympic impramatur.

 

[blockski]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

The role of the IOC is surprisingly limited. The committee decides eligibility (which is of significantly less importance than it was during the cold war), the standards for the medals, the location of the games and the program. The IOC does not conduct the competitions, the sports federations do. An Olympics can correctly be seen as a simultaneous world championship of many sports.

The highest accomplishment for any sport or near sport is to be included on the Olympic program and the non-Olympic associations work tirelessly to be included. And the ones on the bubble work tirelessly to remain on the program. And the program is always in flux, with events being added and eliminated (baseball, softball).

In recent years we've seen expansions of both the winter and summer programs, and each sport that's added raises the costs of these events dramatically. Construction of white water canoeing courses, half pipes and all the rest have bloated the Olympics almost to the point of being unrecognizable. In some cases, like Alpine skiing, events have been added to give great downhill racers a chance at more medals (Bode Miller) without necessarily requiring new and separate facilities. Skeleton has recently been added but uses the luge/bob sled course.

Certainly anyone laboring anonymously in the vineyard of a very small sport, like skeleton, has to be thrilled at the prospect of world wide TV coverage and an Olympic medal. Who wouldn't be? So the IOC's most important decisions these days, apart from where to place the games, is what events will be on the program. That's where these discussions of ball room dancing and other pseudo-sports come from. And the IOC, I think, finds itself in the position of saying "no" to very dedicated energetic people who want their sport to have the Olympic impramatur.

You kinda need to differentiate between adding a new sport and a new event. The addition of the super-combined, for example, is a new medal event within the larger sport of alpine skiing. Freestyle skiing, however, is considered a separate 'sport'.

Generally speaking, it's much easier to add events to existing sports than it is to add new sports to the mix - as you note, new events largely use existing facilities.

I think you're wrong, however, to lump whitewater canoeing courses in with half-pipes. The half-pipe is hardly a specialized venue - every ski area that would even think of hosting the Olympics has one (or can make one).

Along those lines, I'd really like to see ski halfpipe added to the list of medal events. You don't need to change anything - hell, you'd actually get more use out of the halfpipe than you do now.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

You kinda need to differentiate between adding a new sport and a new event. The addition of the super-combined, for example, is a new medal event within the larger sport of alpine skiing. Freestyle skiing, however, is considered a separate 'sport'.

Generally speaking, it's much easier to add events to existing sports than it is to add new sports to the mix - as you note, new events largely use existing facilities.

I think you're wrong, however, to lump whitewater canoeing courses in with half-pipes. The half-pipe is hardly a specialized venue - every ski area that would even think of hosting the Olympics has one (or can make one).

Along those lines, I'd really like to see ski halfpipe added to the list of medal events. You don't need to change anything - hell, you'd actually get more use out of the halfpipe than you do now.

Perhaps. I have nothing against any of these events, was just trying to provide some background. And I believe I did differentiate, especially in the case of the additional Alpine events, that they don't add significantly to the costs.

In the case of half pipe (where I evidently unintentionally touched a nerve) it's not just a matter of constructing the pipe. For an Olympics you need lots of infrastructure for TV, spectators, officials etc. Sometimes road improvements and parking. Big honking scoreboards and video replay screens. These things don't come cheap. On the very narrow point of whether half pipe should be compared to white water canoeing in the context of my post, perhaps you're right. But trust me, I'm not on a jihad against halfpipe.

The Gen X type events are IMHO good additions to the program. They bring in younger viewers who might stick around for other competitions. Who can argue that Shaun White hasn't been a compelling, delightful figure these last two games? So we really don't disagree.

My basic point remains: Olympics are horrifically expensive to mount and adding additional sports drives up the cost exponentially.

 

[blockski]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Perhaps. I have nothing against any of these events, was just trying to provide some background. And I believe I did differentiate, especially in the case of the additional Alpine events, that they don't add significantly to the costs.

In the case of half pipe (where I evidently unintentionally touched a nerve) it's not just a matter of constructing the pipe. For an Olympics you need lots of infrastructure for TV, spectators, officials etc. Sometimes road improvements and parking. Big honking scoreboards and video replay screens. These things don't come cheap. On the very narrow point of whether half pipe should be compared to white water canoeing in the context of my post, perhaps you're right. But trust me, I'm not on a jihad against halfpipe.

The Gen X type events are IMHO good additions to the program. They bring in younger viewers who might stick around for other competitions. Who can argue that Shaun White hasn't been a compelling, delightful figure these last two games? So we really don't disagree.

My basic point remains: Olympics are horrifically expensive to mount and adding additional sports drives up the cost exponentially.

All those bleachers and whatnot are temporary. I've seen (for example) the hills used for the various Alpine events in Salt Lake before, during, and after the games. Sure, there's cost involved in making a halfpipe, but it's not nearly as big as you'd make it out to be.

I don't think it's a narrow point, however. The halfpipe is a matter of grooming snow. If you're on the ski hill, basically you want a hill with a nice flat area at the base for spectators. You'll notice at Vancouver that all of the freestyle courses were right next to each other - the halfpipe, the moguls, and the aerials all used the same grandstand. I believe the ski and snowcross courses also finished at that same area. They're very good at using the same infrastructure.

In Salt Lake, the ski jump and the sliding track were co-located as well.

Your point about adding sports is fine, I don't disagree - but your examples from the winter olympics don't really support the argument. They either use existing mountain space or an ice rink.

 

[SteveP]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

And for the closing ceremony, where the heck was Rush? It was on GLM's facebook page.

They're from Toronto -- no way Vancouver puts them in the show!

 

[SteveP]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

The hosts of the next winter games are a bunching of whining crybabies!

Having watched its Olympic team underachieve the past two weeks, the lead column Monday in the Russian-based publication Pravda ripped the 2010 Games, even pondering the unsubstantiated accusation that the gold-medal Canadian mens hockey team might have been using performance-enhancing substances.

Said Pravda: “Doesn’t it feel great to slam the door behind you as you walk out, stick up the middle finger using the palm of the left hand on the upper right forearm for extra leverage and blow a giant raspberry? That is exactly how it feels as Russia leaves Vancouver after disappointing Games with a question: was the Canadian ice hockey team on drugs?”

 

[bronconick]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Pravda's dang close to being the Russian Enquirer, last I checked.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

NBC paid $1 billion for the rights to these Olympics, and are going to take a bath financially on it. You're not going to find enough people willing to put down that kind of money on such a poor investment. When you're talking about billions, you've moved well past eccentric idiot territory.

I've never understood taking these losses for the sake of saying "home of the 2010 olympics" or whatever it may be...it just seems stupid to be taking losses on these events for what?

 

[Dirty]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Think of the arsewhoopin' the Canucks would've laid down on the Commies if they were on drugs.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

All those bleachers and whatnot are temporary. I've seen (for example) the hills used for the various Alpine events in Salt Lake before, during, and after the games. Sure, there's cost involved in making a halfpipe, but it's not nearly as big as you'd make it out to be.

I don't think it's a narrow point, however. The halfpipe is a matter of grooming snow. If you're on the ski hill, basically you want a hill with a nice flat area at the base for spectators. You'll notice at Vancouver that all of the freestyle courses were right next to each other - the halfpipe, the moguls, and the aerials all used the same grandstand. I believe the ski and snowcross courses also finished at that same area. They're very good at using the same infrastructure.

In Salt Lake, the ski jump and the sliding track were co-located as well.

Your point about adding sports is fine, I don't disagree - but your examples from the winter olympics don't really support the argument. They either use existing mountain space or an ice rink.

I made a broad argument. For some reason, you want to make a narrow one. Okay, assuming you have an example that fits your narrow perspective here (protecting half pipe at all costs, even though I've said twice now that there was no such effort on my part) why don't you express it, then we can discontinue this silly bickering? I have no idea what the actual costs are to bring a venue up to Olympic standards, and haven't offered any specifics, only that it's expensive. You disagree? How 'bout providing some figures. And it goes without saying that Salt Lake City isn't the only place where winter Olympics will be placed. Organizers have to use the topography available to them. And you don't consider the construction of indoor speed skating ovals expensive? You can't host a winter games without one these days.

I'll say it one more time, then I'm done. Mounting an Olympics is scary expensive. And expanding the program, either by adding additional events or sports increases that expense. Can we move on now? And if I chose an imperfect example to make my point, then please forgive me. Okay?

 

[blockski]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

I made a broad argument. For some reason, you want to make a narrow one. Okay, assuming you have an example that fits your narrow perspective here (protecting half pipe at all costs, even though I've said twice now that there was no such effort on my part) why don't you express it, then we can discontinue this silly bickering? I have no idea what the actual costs are to bring a venue up to Olympic standards, and haven't offered any specifics, only that it's expensive. You disagree? How 'bout providing some figures. And it goes without saying that Salt Lake City isn't the only place where winter Olympics will be placed. Organizers have to use the topography available to them. And you don't consider the construction of indoor speed skating ovals expensive? You can't host a winter games without one these days.

I'll say it one more time, then I'm done. Mounting an Olympics is scary expensive. And expanding the program, either by adding additional events or sports increases that expense. Can we move on now? And if I chose an imperfect example to make my point, then please forgive me. Okay?

No need to take it personally, man.

You made a broad argument, and while I agree with the general principle, I think you overstated your case. Sure, adding events adds expense, but that's kinda beside the point unless you take revenue into account as well.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Venue revenues are expensive, but what really makes the games expensive is when you start adding public infrastructure projects like airports, transit lines and new highways and lumping them in with other Olympic costs.

If costs were really the issue, the IOC could simply build a permanent Olympic sports complex in Greece (Summer) and Switzerland (winter) and hold the games every four years there. But that would take a lot of the fun out of it....

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

Venue revenues are expensive, but what really makes the games expensive is when you start adding public infrastructure projects like airports, transit lines and new highways and lumping them in with other Olympic costs.

If costs were really the issue, the IOC could simply build a permanent Olympic sports complex in Greece (Summer) and Switzerland (winter) and hold the games every four years there. But that would take a lot of the fun out of it....

Yeah. I recall in '72 in Sapporo they constructed a new subway line (that rolled on rubber wheels), heated downtown sidewalks and constructed some massive new underground retail facilities. Those projects had doubtless been proposed for some time, but the Olympics gave 'em the impetus to be completed.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

They're from Toronto -- no way Vancouver puts them in the show!

I know everyone in Flyover Canada is supposed to hate Toronto, just like everyone in Flyover USA is supposed to hate New York, but you're missing the point. As much as I would love to see Rush blow Nickelback off the stage, they don't have the youth appeal (and therefore, do not draw in the advertising dollars). Neil Young was the bone thrown to the older audience.

 

[jmh]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

[E]veryone in Flyover USA is supposed to hate New York

What, all six of you?

 

[blockski]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

I know everyone in Flyover Canada is supposed to hate Toronto, just like everyone in Flyover USA is supposed to hate New York, but you're missing the point. As much as I would love to see Rush blow Nickelback off the stage, they don't have the youth appeal (and therefore, do not draw in the advertising dollars). Neil Young was the bone thrown to the older audience.

And, you know, people who care about musical talent.

 

[Patman]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

I really get the feeling that the collective mind at NBC is more concerned about the social circle stuff than doing their jobs... I mean that'd explain the Olympics botch last night (want to cuddle up to Seinfeld) and that'd explain the Leno-Conan saga. NBC just seems to be OK with embarrassing themselves and I think its likely because its insiders are having a grand old time.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

So many people want different things from their Olympic Viewing that it's hard for NBC to please everyone and still make money.

That said, I think we're at the point where NBC could offer it's usual main network fare in prime time to please the core audience, and re-offer pay-per-view (remember the failed Olympics Triple Cast from 1992?) for those who want live and commercial free sports. I'd easily pay $100-$200 for two weeks of live programming (or a daily rate of $20 or so) without tape delays and commericals, and I think NBC could make enough money to recap it's costs. Sure, they'd lose a little of their prime time audience, but at least for those who want their sports live, I think they could make some of the money back. The other thing they could do to keep their own costs down on PPV is to offer the "World Feed" - the generic feed that every other country in the world sees.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Part VI of the XXI Winter Olympiad: USA!! USA!! USA!!

So many people want different things from their Olympic Viewing that it's hard for NBC to please everyone and still make money.

That said, I think we're at the point where NBC could offer it's usual main network fare in prime time to please the core audience, and re-offer pay-per-view (remember the failed Olympics Triple Cast from 1992?) for those who want live and commercial free sports. I'd easily pay $100-$200 for two weeks of live programming (or a daily rate of $20 or so) without tape delays and commericals, and I think NBC could make enough money to recap it's costs. Sure, they'd lose a little of their prime time audience, but at least for those who want their sports live, I think they could make some of the money back. The other thing they could do to keep their own costs down on PPV is to offer the "World Feed" - the generic feed that every other country in the world sees.

1. Yes:

Wasn't it NBC with the "Triplecast" years ago?

2. I had NO problem with the coverage of the actual Games (helped by the fact I got all the channels that were covering the Games). I just had a problem with the interruption of the Closing Ceremonies (which I rarely watch, but wanted to see this year's, for some random reason) because NBC wanted to showcase some crappy show that probably won't last the year, and the local news.