Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
Yeah, kinda fine with that. Let 'em think whatever they wanna think.
Yeah, kinda fine with that. Let 'em think whatever they wanna think.
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Paris Under Attack....the hell?
- Thread starter Greyeagle
- Start date
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
Unless you kill them all you wont solve the problem. You either kill em all or you do it more surgically...if you bomb towns killing tons of innocents but leave some alive you just created the next wave of terrorists.
And for those of you saying kill/nuke them all, doesnt that just make us as bad as them? You are all upset they are killing innocents indiscriminately (and rightfully so they are scum) but that is exactly what you are advocating. We lose our moral high ground if we lower ourselves to the levels of the barbarians who did these terrible acts. Killing innocents isnt justified because others killed innocents.
Just my $.02...
I hope Paris is avenged, but I fear there is no turning back now and Europe will go to war which is not a good thing. The economies are failing, refugees are flocking in and nationalism is on the rise. That is a bad combo and the last thing anyone needs is a holy war.
Unless you kill them all you wont solve the problem. You either kill em all or you do it more surgically...if you bomb towns killing tons of innocents but leave some alive you just created the next wave of terrorists.
And for those of you saying kill/nuke them all, doesnt that just make us as bad as them? You are all upset they are killing innocents indiscriminately (and rightfully so they are scum) but that is exactly what you are advocating. We lose our moral high ground if we lower ourselves to the levels of the barbarians who did these terrible acts. Killing innocents isnt justified because others killed innocents.
Just my $.02...
I hope Paris is avenged, but I fear there is no turning back now and Europe will go to war which is not a good thing. The economies are failing, refugees are flocking in and nationalism is on the rise. That is a bad combo and the last thing anyone needs is a holy war.
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dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
I don't disagree. But most of what I (we?) say are hyperbolic, emotional responses completely lacking in foresight and a basis in reality. There's a middle ground, I just don't know where it is.
I don't disagree. But most of what I (we?) say are hyperbolic, emotional responses completely lacking in foresight and a basis in reality. There's a middle ground, I just don't know where it is.
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
The trouble is, this is not a country we are fighting. It's a network. And unfortunately, surgical elimination seems to be extremely difficult, if not impossible. You start wiping out cities, then the "innocents" might actually start outing these animals and then we might be able to surgically remove them, and if they don't? Then those innocents are just as guilty. Bomb 'em all. Nothing else has worked, so let's go balls out.
The trouble is, this is not a country we are fighting. It's a network. And unfortunately, surgical elimination seems to be extremely difficult, if not impossible. You start wiping out cities, then the "innocents" might actually start outing these animals and then we might be able to surgically remove them, and if they don't? Then those innocents are just as guilty. Bomb 'em all. Nothing else has worked, so let's go balls out.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
So you kill thousands, maybe millions of non-combatants because of where they live? How does that make you any better than the people you abhor? Just because yo are doing it in the name of "freedom" doesnt make you any less disgusting than those who are doing it for "God". Murder is murder, genocide is genocide no matter how you slice it or try and justify it.
This isnt WWII...we cant get away with ignoring morality just because it suits us anymore. Our actions have consequences and your actions will almost certainly do nothing but make things worse. Do you really think the extremists will stop because you nuked Islamabad? All you will do is strengthen their resolve and **** off even more people to join their cause. (not to mentin sign Israel's death warrent along with any westerner who lives in the Middle East) You wanna know how I know...look at the results of every action we have taken in the Middle East.
But sure, lets destroy some cities and kill lots of people...worked so well before!
So you kill thousands, maybe millions of non-combatants because of where they live? How does that make you any better than the people you abhor? Just because yo are doing it in the name of "freedom" doesnt make you any less disgusting than those who are doing it for "God". Murder is murder, genocide is genocide no matter how you slice it or try and justify it.
This isnt WWII...we cant get away with ignoring morality just because it suits us anymore. Our actions have consequences and your actions will almost certainly do nothing but make things worse. Do you really think the extremists will stop because you nuked Islamabad? All you will do is strengthen their resolve and **** off even more people to join their cause. (not to mentin sign Israel's death warrent along with any westerner who lives in the Middle East) You wanna know how I know...look at the results of every action we have taken in the Middle East.
But sure, lets destroy some cities and kill lots of people...worked so well before!
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
This is not WW2, we were not attacked and Muslim Extremists are not Japan. The level of false equivalency in that line of thinking is astounding. You said it yourself we arent fighting a country yet you want to attack random sovereign nations based on the idea they harbor our enemies? You would go to war, killing thousands of Americans for this? You plan to sign up cause your ego is going to cost a lot of people their lives...
You ever see the movie The Siege? You are starting to sound like Bruce Willis in that movie. Hey in WW2 we locked up all the Japanese for fear they might be spies, why not do that with all the Muslims since they might be terrorists. I mean you said it yourself, sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty. Lets torture them too, make sure we make them pay for what they did, even if they didnt do it...the ends justify the means right?
This country never learns...we sold our souls after 9/11 to feel safer and now we want to go even farther down the rabbithole because of what happened in Paris. Just amazing...
This is not WW2, we were not attacked and Muslim Extremists are not Japan. The level of false equivalency in that line of thinking is astounding. You said it yourself we arent fighting a country yet you want to attack random sovereign nations based on the idea they harbor our enemies? You would go to war, killing thousands of Americans for this? You plan to sign up cause your ego is going to cost a lot of people their lives...
You ever see the movie The Siege? You are starting to sound like Bruce Willis in that movie. Hey in WW2 we locked up all the Japanese for fear they might be spies, why not do that with all the Muslims since they might be terrorists. I mean you said it yourself, sometimes you gotta get your hands dirty. Lets torture them too, make sure we make them pay for what they did, even if they didnt do it...the ends justify the means right?
This country never learns...we sold our souls after 9/11 to feel safer and now we want to go even farther down the rabbithole because of what happened in Paris. Just amazing...
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
Because current methods since 9-11 have worked so well.
The other option? Close shop to the world. Become self-sustaining, tell the world to figure out their own probs, and stop being the world police. Seriously, these are the options left, IMO. Go balls out, or completely turtle.
Yes, I'd like current methods to take effect, but it ain't happening. The last 15 years have shown that. Oh noes, sanctions? Whoop de doo. Stuff like Paris is still happening. So, have to change our methods.
Because current methods since 9-11 have worked so well.
The other option? Close shop to the world. Become self-sustaining, tell the world to figure out their own probs, and stop being the world police. Seriously, these are the options left, IMO. Go balls out, or completely turtle.
Yes, I'd like current methods to take effect, but it ain't happening. The last 15 years have shown that. Oh noes, sanctions? Whoop de doo. Stuff like Paris is still happening. So, have to change our methods.
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
Japan was the best example I could think of off the top of my head. It's not the same, I know this. And you should have known I know this.
Japan was the best example I could think of off the top of my head. It's not the same, I know this. And you should have known I know this.
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
I am all for closing up shop...we need to get out of this before we end up right back where we started. We cant go to war with a countryless army and we cant just kill em all. This is a bad situation and if we go in half cocked we will not make it better.
It wont matter anyway, no way Europe stands for this they have been looking for reasons to go after the Muslims anyways...well outside Germany. Think about that...
I am all for closing up shop...we need to get out of this before we end up right back where we started. We cant go to war with a countryless army and we cant just kill em all. This is a bad situation and if we go in half cocked we will not make it better.
It wont matter anyway, no way Europe stands for this they have been looking for reasons to go after the Muslims anyways...well outside Germany. Think about that...
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
Frankly, I am not happy we decided to be the world's police in the first place. I'd PREFER closing up shop. Sadly, our leaders aren't having that, outside of Trump, and he scares the bejeezus out of me.
Frankly, I am not happy we decided to be the world's police in the first place. I'd PREFER closing up shop. Sadly, our leaders aren't having that, outside of Trump, and he scares the bejeezus out of me.
leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
There is no perfect answer. The thing that has made these people so successful is fostering hate. The hate they foster isn't rational but it is easy, once you get it started to make it grow. Just like hating a whole group of people for their religion/ nationality isn't rational. It is easier to believe that if we wipe out a bunch of people it will solve a problem than to realize humans are an effed up bunch. Then we can have the misguided notion that we will have some control. When you are fighting a war against crazy beliefs no violence will be enough. It will create another set of people who also get caught up in crazy thinking, hating indiscriminately and off you go.
The thing that scares me the most in this is it is entirely possible people will do crazy things in retaliation to people just for the sake of feeling they need to do something. I can't figure out what the answer is but this makes me think of all the Japanese internment camps in WWII. That did nothing but falsely soothe the country's psyche
THis is a great post.
There is no perfect answer. The thing that has made these people so successful is fostering hate. The hate they foster isn't rational but it is easy, once you get it started to make it grow. Just like hating a whole group of people for their religion/ nationality isn't rational. It is easier to believe that if we wipe out a bunch of people it will solve a problem than to realize humans are an effed up bunch. Then we can have the misguided notion that we will have some control. When you are fighting a war against crazy beliefs no violence will be enough. It will create another set of people who also get caught up in crazy thinking, hating indiscriminately and off you go.
The thing that scares me the most in this is it is entirely possible people will do crazy things in retaliation to people just for the sake of feeling they need to do something. I can't figure out what the answer is but this makes me think of all the Japanese internment camps in WWII. That did nothing but falsely soothe the country's psyche
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
WRT ISIS, which ones are those? Seems like they are more in the process of overthrowing governments.
For this, plus what happened in Egypt, ISIS is going out of their way to engage more countries. Some that much less concerns on rights and human life than others. Not sure why they think this is a good thing. Russia had not been targeting ISIS as much as the other rebels to keep the current regime in Syria. Now they have reasons to target ISIS over the nominal rebels.
The other thing- they just made the migrant crisis an order of magnitude worse. While many were fearing attackers would sneak in with the rest of the people, now that it's real- borders are going to close farther. Which means that ISIS has just punished more Syrians.
WRT ISIS, which ones are those? Seems like they are more in the process of overthrowing governments.
For this, plus what happened in Egypt, ISIS is going out of their way to engage more countries. Some that much less concerns on rights and human life than others. Not sure why they think this is a good thing. Russia had not been targeting ISIS as much as the other rebels to keep the current regime in Syria. Now they have reasons to target ISIS over the nominal rebels.
The other thing- they just made the migrant crisis an order of magnitude worse. While many were fearing attackers would sneak in with the rest of the people, now that it's real- borders are going to close farther. Which means that ISIS has just punished more Syrians.
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
It sounds more like the propsed strategic plan is something like you threaten to kill the non-combatants as "co-conspirators" for providing safe haven to the bad actors, unless they take an active role in ridding their own neighborhoods of the terrorists by providing strategic intelligence, offering safe passage to special-ops, pointing out the terrorists' houses for targeted bomb strikes, etc.
If the threat is credible enough, one hopes that the regular folks would be able to step up in their own defense, not by taking arms (and getting slaughtered by the terrorists instead of us) but by covert resistance. I mean, if you are a civilian forced to deliver food to them under duress against your will, consider lacing it with something, etc.
Just like United Flight 93 may change forever the way airplane passengers respond to hostage situations, it seems to me that the attack on the nightclub should also give people second thoughts on how to react.
How can three people with automatic weapons take 100 people hostage, when, if those people all charged the terrorists at the same time, they eventually could overwhelm them?
The only reason in the past to refrain from such a "suicidal" action in self-defense would be the hope that the terrorists would keep the hostages alive so that they could use the hostages as negotiating chips. It sounds more like the terrorists now will only hold the hostages long enough to set up the bombs throughout the building (I know that didn't quite happen yesterday, but that's the threat going forward).
The terrorists have now changed the rules of game going forward, and so now ordinary people have to change their responses too: no more hoping they'll let you live if you don't resist, now we know that they will just go through and mow you down one by one. Either die in self-defense acting as a group, or die cringing in fear one by one.
I've advocated universal military training for every US citizen in the past, more to keep us out of wars while teaching people basic personal safety and establishing basic standards for personal fitness; maybe we now need to consider universal public safety training to include how to rush hostage takers en masse right away. They changed the rules, we need to adapt.
It sounds more like the propsed strategic plan is something like you threaten to kill the non-combatants as "co-conspirators" for providing safe haven to the bad actors, unless they take an active role in ridding their own neighborhoods of the terrorists by providing strategic intelligence, offering safe passage to special-ops, pointing out the terrorists' houses for targeted bomb strikes, etc.
If the threat is credible enough, one hopes that the regular folks would be able to step up in their own defense, not by taking arms (and getting slaughtered by the terrorists instead of us) but by covert resistance. I mean, if you are a civilian forced to deliver food to them under duress against your will, consider lacing it with something, etc.
Just like United Flight 93 may change forever the way airplane passengers respond to hostage situations, it seems to me that the attack on the nightclub should also give people second thoughts on how to react.
How can three people with automatic weapons take 100 people hostage, when, if those people all charged the terrorists at the same time, they eventually could overwhelm them?
The only reason in the past to refrain from such a "suicidal" action in self-defense would be the hope that the terrorists would keep the hostages alive so that they could use the hostages as negotiating chips. It sounds more like the terrorists now will only hold the hostages long enough to set up the bombs throughout the building (I know that didn't quite happen yesterday, but that's the threat going forward).
The terrorists have now changed the rules of game going forward, and so now ordinary people have to change their responses too: no more hoping they'll let you live if you don't resist, now we know that they will just go through and mow you down one by one. Either die in self-defense acting as a group, or die cringing in fear one by one.
I've advocated universal military training for every US citizen in the past, more to keep us out of wars while teaching people basic personal safety and establishing basic standards for personal fitness; maybe we now need to consider universal public safety training to include how to rush hostage takers en masse right away. They changed the rules, we need to adapt.
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Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
Former poster Boosh is at the Paris airport, thankfully he's safe and sound.
Former poster Boosh is at the Paris airport, thankfully he's safe and sound.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
I don't think you understand how the attacks came about. They were at the top level of the Bataclan. The pit is where the vast majority of people are. I posted a link to it earlier. They were also throwing grenades. There are no tables. There was likely nothing these people could do but run.
This isn't a small space. This was a place where they had all of the advantages. Bullets from a gun like an AK would go through a table like a hot knife though butter.
I don't think you understand how the attacks came about. They were at the top level of the Bataclan. The pit is where the vast majority of people are. I posted a link to it earlier. They were also throwing grenades. There are no tables. There was likely nothing these people could do but run.
This isn't a small space. This was a place where they had all of the advantages. Bullets from a gun like an AK would go through a table like a hot knife though butter.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?
And if we do overreact and do things like Huckabee (no refugees at all) or Cruz (no Muslims, only Christians -- yes, he actually said that on Fox this morning) suggest, we are the best recruiters ISIS can have, Just as we played right into AQ's hands by invading Iraq.
There is no simple answer, but the reaction, "Don't think; DO SOMETHING!", while understandable, does no good and can do a lot of bad.
And if we do overreact and do things like Huckabee (no refugees at all) or Cruz (no Muslims, only Christians -- yes, he actually said that on Fox this morning) suggest, we are the best recruiters ISIS can have, Just as we played right into AQ's hands by invading Iraq.
There is no simple answer, but the reaction, "Don't think; DO SOMETHING!", while understandable, does no good and can do a lot of bad.