Paris Under Attack....the hell?

[alfablue]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

It's dying for a God. Becoming a martyr. Extreme Muslims are THAT committed to their religion. There are some who don't accept that explanation, and that (IMO) is what is hindering things. The doubters cannot comprehend that there ARE people who WILL go all the way for their religion.

Over the course of history, religion has started many a war. Few groups have actually entered conflict hoping to die for their cause (due to whatever rewards the afterlife gives them). ISIS is one of those groups.

But what is the mechanism that they can convince people that it's a better thing to die than fight within the system? What are they being told?

In France, what would have to change in the neighborhoods for them to not want to fight?

BTW, we should not forget that France's history with conflict with Muslims goes back a way, too- they had control over much of North Africa which ended badly- especially within France and how many people really hated not fighting for those countries. Italy has some similar history, but much of that was muddled nicely with how WWII ended.

What's really interesting, though, much of the Middle East was under English control. It just ended differently for them.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

But what is the mechanism that they can convince people that it's a better thing to die than fight within the system? What are they being told?

In France, what would have to change in the neighborhoods for them to not want to fight?

BTW, we should not forget that France's history with conflict with Muslims goes back a way, too- they had control over much of North Africa which ended badly- especially within France and how many people really hated not fighting for those countries. Italy has some similar history, but much of that was muddled nicely with how WWII ended.

What's really interesting, though, much of the Middle East was under English control. It just ended differently for them.

Call it brainwashing, call it true devotion, the classification doesn't matter. The end result is what matters. There are children, being brought up under "die for Allah, and you will be rewarded." This is being passed down from generation to generation. It's incredibly sad, but it's the truth. To reverse this...total annihilation. Cut off the source and start anew. Either that, or close all pathways to prevent these thoughts from being spread (like France closing its borders). Containment.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

This could've been much worse. All on worldwide live TV too.

On another note, The German and French teams both slept at Stade de France last night. The Germans because their hotel was not secure, the French out of solidarity to the German team.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

Poverty and depression caused by horrible income equality from exploitation by morally bankrupt leaders and western capitalism.

That's not necessarily the case, at least in regards to westerners that become radicalized. Most come from middle class or at least economically stable households. The most common traits seem to be a combination of not having a father in the picture or unengaged emotionally, some sort of depression or other emotional issues that don't get dealt with at a younger age, and running into a charismatic leader as a 16/17 year-old, which is a very vulnerable developmental stage.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

It's dying for a God. Becoming a martyr. Extreme Muslims are THAT committed to their religion. There are some who don't accept that explanation, and that (IMO) is what is hindering things. The doubters cannot comprehend that there ARE people who WILL go all the way for their religion.

This. It's appalling that there are people whose first instinct is to immediately blame America and/or capitalism. Ward "Little Eichmanns" Churchill would be proud of them.

Those may be secondary factors, but the extreme elements of the religion and its sect leaders come first and foremost.

 

[MissThundercat]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

"Lovers of death, if God exists, he hated you. And you have already lost, in heaven and on earth."

What a Charlie Hebdo cartoonist wrote last night...

 

[alfablue]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

Call it brainwashing, call it true devotion, the classification doesn't matter. The end result is what matters. There are children, being brought up under "die for Allah, and you will be rewarded." This is being passed down from generation to generation. It's incredibly sad, but it's the truth. To reverse this...total annihilation. Cut off the source and start anew. Either that, or close all pathways to prevent these thoughts from being spread (like France closing its borders). Containment.

But it does matter. If one can figure out HOW people get brainwashed, then there is a way to stop it.

As you will never annihilate it. If the how is not addressed, there will always be someone to step into the next attack. Isn't that obvious?

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

The vast majority of Muslims have no intention of dying for God or we'd see far, far more suicide attacks than we have. Why do you think it's never the higher ups with a strap-on? Generals often see the field of battle, but they don't have a death-wish and neither do the leaders of ISIS or even their followers. They con know-nothings into doing their dirty work for them and every one else is into self-preservation.

 

[burd]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

Call it brainwashing, call it true devotion, the classification doesn't matter. The end result is what matters. There are children, being brought up under "die for Allah, and you will be rewarded." This is being passed down from generation to generation. It's incredibly sad, but it's the truth. To reverse this...total annihilation. Cut off the source and start anew. Either that, or close all pathways to prevent these thoughts from being spread (like France closing its borders). Containment.

Neither are effective means to deal with this, and the first is insanity. Understandable thing to say, under the circumstances and the feelings that come with them, but not rational.

 

[unofan]

The vast majority of Muslims have no intention of dying for God or we'd see far, far more suicide attacks than we have. Why do you think it's never the higher ups with a strap-on? Generals often see the field of battle, but they don't have a death-wish and neither do the leaders of ISIS or even their followers. They con know-nothings into doing their dirty work for them and every one else is into self-preservation.

The average Muslim is a 5'6" East Asian from Indonesia or India. It's not an Arab or Persian or even Chechnian.

Just saying.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

But it does matter. If one can figure out HOW people get brainwashed, then there is a way to stop it.

As you will never annihilate it. If the how is not addressed, there will always be someone to step into the next attack. Isn't that obvious?

This. It is like a Hydra. Chop one head of and 5 more pop up. Think of all those who enlisted after 9/11. Many of them had never thought of the outside world or of joining up. Similarly there are many, many people in the Middle East and elsewhere that are minding their own business who could be similarly galvanized if innocents are bombed in an attempt to cleanse.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

I am a child of the Viet Nam era-That was supposed to be simple. We kept trying to make it simple. It caused great angst in this country, thousands and thousands died. Women and children were used to kill our troops. Eventually everyone was open season to protect ourselves. We used Agent Orange to remove cover and destroy environment of the enemy. I don't think we were squeamish agout what we were willing to do. We left with no resolution, thousands of casualties and many of our troops who did make it home continue to suffer the aftermath both physically and psychologically (when I was younger I took care of some, it was very sad). The more we killed and tried, the more the general populace was involved. We found out the enemy was not just the army but the mentality the war created.

We now have a global communication system that can be used to incite, a world population that has become more mobile and mixed and a way for those who want to incite violence to communicate. I have no idea how to calm the beast but bluster and violence alone will just reaffirm what the nutbags tell their potential followers. It will give them a way to motivate.

It is very nasty to feel helpless rage. It feels like the bad guys win. I wish I could believe a few bombs would be enough. When I think of it, really think of it, I know it would not. The way to win is to look at what will stop the ability to recruit all but the most influence-able. That requires composure in the face of brutality. It also requires finding a way to stop people on the good side responding in the same reactive way that the bad side does.Not really sure we are capable of doing that. (this is not articulately put but if you were to look at things dispassionately we have 2 sides of people who are being sucked into craziness because violence and craziness begets violence and craziness.)

Disclaimer, I was young, had a military Dad and a neo-liberal Mum, lived behind an AF base who had people deployed so my understanding might be skewed re the Viet Nam war.

and yes grammar horse I have way too many run on sentences and grammatical errors!

 

[burd]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

The emotions we feel after a cowardly slaughter like this make us want to kill back. I do. I know I'm going to take criticism for what I am about to say as being insensitive, disloyal, and falsely conspiratorial. But think about how many die every year in this country alone from consuming foods like sugar and tobacco which are poisonous in the short and long term and which are fed to us by our own corporations who have the ability to control our urges with endless saturation advertising and profit from our addictions. Do you think the corporations that are feeding us fatal amounts of dietary slow-suicide pills in nearly everything we eat care about the how many die and suffer from it? And many of us profit indirectly from that commerce.

I'm not trying to compare the inhumanity of Paris with Coca Cola or attacking the American Way. Just wondering at how we become so incensed at the slaughter of hundreds and "sail calmly on" while a hundred or a thousand times that number die yearly from obesity, diabetes, heart disease, COPD, and various chronic diseases, many of which are linked to addictions like sugar and tobacco consumption.

It is not the human cost of the attacks in France that offends us, it's the face of the attacker (enemy face--not simply Muslim) and the form of the attack. That, to me, is partly why it is so important that we not let our anger get control of our wits.

 

[The Rube]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

Neither are effective means to deal with this, and the first is insanity. Understandable thing to say, under the circumstances and the feelings that come with them, but not rational.

Well, Japan hasn't threatened us in 60+ years...

Don't get me wrong, I would rather not resort to that, but...

 

[Kepler]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

It's dying for a God. Becoming a martyr. Extreme Muslims are THAT committed to their religion. There are some who don't accept that explanation, and that (IMO) is what is hindering things. The doubters cannot comprehend that there ARE people who WILL go all the way for their religion.

I don't think anybody doubts that. But the question remains, out 4 billion or so theists, why these people, now? It's not religion, per se, and not Islam, per se, because so many more people with those characteristics are peaceful. It's not the legacy of colonialism, because there's a whole continent of Africans who have as much of an axe to grind against the west than Middle Easterners.

The tendency when facing danger is to try to reduce it to something simple because then we can act clearly, but this is not simple. There was a great guest on Bill Maher Friday, Asra Nomani, who actually argues that we have to take the threat of Wahhabist Islam more seriously and name it, who also said false narratives lead to stuff like refusing to take Syrian refugees -- the very people running from the same thing we are afraid of!

Likewise, the idea that we can just carpet bomb territories that have a strong ISIS presence is not just immoral but self-contradictory, like trying to fight gangs by bombing the cities they operate in.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

The emotions we feel after a cowardly slaughter like this make us want to kill back. I do. I know I'm going to take criticism for what I am about to say as being insensitive, disloyal, and falsely conspiratorial. But think about how many die every year in this country alone from consuming foods like sugar and tobacco which are poisonous in the short and long term and which are fed to us by our own corporations who have the ability to control our urges with endless saturation advertising and profit from our addictions. Do you think the corporations that are feeding us fatal amounts of dietary slow-suicide pills in nearly everything we eat care about the how many die and suffer from it? And many of us profit indirectly from that commerce.

I'm not trying to compare the inhumanity of Paris with Coca Cola or attacking the American Way. Just wondering at how we become so incensed at the slaughter of hundreds and "sail calmly on" while a hundred or a thousand times that number die yearly from obesity, diabetes, heart disease, COPD, and various chronic diseases, many of which are linked to addictions like sugar and tobacco consumption.

It is not the human cost of the attacks in France that offends us, it's the face of the attacker (enemy face--not simply Muslim) and the form of the attack. That, to me, is partly why it is so important that we not let our anger get control of our wits.

This is a brilliant post.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

I don't think anybody doubts that. But the question remains, out 4 billion or so theists, why these people, now? It's not religion, per se, and not Islam, per se, because so many more people with those characteristics are peaceful. It's not the legacy of colonialism, because there's a whole continent of Africans who have as much of an axe to grind against the west than Middle Easterners.

The tendency when facing danger is to try to reduce it to something simple because then we can act clearly, but this is not simple. There was a great guest on Bill Maher Friday, Asra Nomani, who actually argues that we have to take the threat of Wahhabist Islam more seriously and name it, who also said false narratives lead to stuff like refusing to take Syrian refugees -- the very people running from the same thing we are afraid of!

Likewise, the idea that we can just carpet bomb territories that have a strong ISIS presence is not just immoral but self-contradictory, like trying to fight gangs by bombing the cities they operate in.

Quoted for truth.

 

[LynahFan]

This is a brilliant post.

Really? 2 pararaphs of false equivalency with the obligatory, "but I'm not comparing" is brilliant?

Pass.

 

[burd]

Re: Paris Under Attack....the hell?

Really? 2 pararaphs of false equivalency with the obligatory, "but I'm not comparing" is brilliant?

Pass.

Fair point, Lynah. You should conclude that those are false equivalencies, but I don't think I did a good job of explaining what I was comparing.

ISIS is a malevolent force. Its stated objective is to kill and maim its enemies, and westerners are at the top of their list. Their mayhem is so indiscriminate I'm not sure who their enemies are. Everyone should be.

The corporations I speak of are not malevolent. While greed and fealty to shareholders may permit them to sell products that cause a great deal of harm, neither they nor their directors specifically intend to cause harm. I meant to compare the level of harm, not the actors. And that was part of my point.

 

[walrus]

Just wondering at how we become so incensed at the slaughter of hundreds and "sail calmly on" while a hundred or a thousand times that number die yearly from obesity, diabetes, heart disease, COPD, and various chronic diseases, many of which are linked to addictions like sugar and tobacco consumption.

It is not the human cost of the attacks in France that offends us, it's the face of the attacker (enemy face--not simply Muslim) and the form of the attack. That, to me, is partly why it is so important that we not let our anger get control of our wits.

One chooses to eat that crap, the victims in Paris didn't choose