Ohio State Buckeyes 2022-2023 ... The Drive For Duluth

[robertearle]

We can chat about it at next weekends game but wouldn't the number you mentioned most likely keep us out of contention for hosting the WCHA championship or a second round NCAA playoff? I think hosting those should be a consideration for a new building. As a fan I certainly want the possibility of more post season games in our house. And wouldn't home ice be a benefit for our team to help advance in the tournaments?

Hosting NCAAs prior to the final four is earned by the team's Pairwise and RPI/NPI ranking; It doesn't depend on the quality or size of the home rink. Ohio State hosted Quinnipiac just last year. Undoubtedly, you'll be doing so again this year.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Hosting NCAAs prior to the final four is earned by the team's Pairwise and RPI/NPI ranking; It doesn't depend on the quality or size of the home rink. Ohio State hosted Quinnipiac just last year. Undoubtedly, you'll be doing so again this year.

My memory is foggy but has a women's only arena ever hosted a women's Frozen Four? But what about my other point? How big must an arena be to be awarded a WCHA final? That cherry isn't determined by rankings.

 

[robertearle]

My memory is foggy but has a women's only arena ever hosted a women's Frozen Four? But what about my other point? How big must an arena be to be awarded a WCHA final? That cherry isn't determined by rankings.

Without double-checking, I'm fairly sure that the 2019 NCAA finals were at Ridder And I know for certain that 2018 (?, the year Ohio State lost to Clarkson in the semis, and UW lost to Colgate) were also at Ridder; I was there.

As for WCHAs, the issue "they" always bring up with regard to LaBahn hosting is space for press/media, not seating capacity. We hope, I guess, that having pulled off the U19 world championships might convince them otherwise. But recently, it has been limited to Ridder, Bemidji, North Dakota and Duluth; all good sized, etc.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

As for WCHAs, the issue "they" always bring up with regard to LaBahn hosting is space for press/media, not seating capacity.

I would hope that press & media accomodations would be properly considered in the design of any new arena.
​​​​​​Pegula Arena where last years FF was played has an official seating capacity of 6014. I was hospitalized during the FF and can't recall, was it a sellout?

 

[pgb-ohio]

"... selling the same seat twice..."?

Unlike with other sports, UW distributes more tickets for women's hockey games than it has seats in LaBahn Arena — listed capacity 2,273 — by 300 or 400. That's done because of a lower usage rate among season ticket holders, a UW spokesman said.

If seating is General Admission, then my phrasing was awkward. My original thought was that, based on the above quote, UW is willing to sell 300-400 seats twice. But it's never a problem because no-shows are always > 400.

Now I'm guessing that we're talking about the distribution of free tickets. Meaning the tickets are more like "invitations," and not really sales?

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

I was hospitalized during the FF and can't recall, was it a sellout?

Never mind, I found it. Officisl attendance of the 2022 National Championship game is listed as 2008.

 

[pgb-ohio]

As for WCHAs, the issue "they" always bring up with regard to LaBahn hosting is space for press/media, not seating capacity. We hope, I guess, that having pulled off the U19 world championships might convince them otherwise. But recently, it has been limited to Ridder, Bemidji, North Dakota and Duluth; all good sized, etc.

Responding to both you & HockeyBuckeye, here's a quick history of the tournament we now refer to as the Final Face-Off:

A. 23 Tournaments have been held. The first three were held in neutral, off-campus sites:
- 2000: Bloomington Ice Garden (South Suburban Twin Cities)
- 2001: Rochester Recreation Center (SE Minnesota)
- 2002: Fogerty Arena of Blaine (North Suburban Twin Cities)


B. 15 of the 23 Tournaments have been hosted at the University of Minnesota's Ridder Arena, including the 7 most recent tournaments.


C. The other 5 campus sites were all buildings large enough to stage D-1 Men's Games:
- North Dakota's Engelstad Arena (2003 & 2015)
- UMD's DECC (2008 & 2012)
- Bemidji's Sanford Center (2014)


IDK of any size requirement, though that doesn't prove there isn't one. But as previously posted, it's unlikely that the Final Face-Off will ever come to Columbus, due to self-evident geographic reasons. Or if it does, it would almost certainly come on a one-off basis. (Like the 2014 Bemidji Tournament) Hardly a reason to alter the design of our hoped-for new rink.

Quite honestly, if Ridder hasn't become the permanent site for the tournament, it's awfully close to that status.

 

[ARM]

Without double-checking, I'm fairly sure that the 2019 NCAA finals were at Ridder And I know for certain that 2018 (?, the year Ohio State lost to Clarkson in the semis, and UW lost to Colgate) were also at Ridder; I was there.

In 2019, Q was the host; UM hasn't had good finals success at that venue. Ridder did host in 2010, 2013, and 2015 in addition to 2018.

As for WCHAs, the issue "they" always bring up with regard to LaBahn hosting is space for press/media, not seating capacity. We hope, I guess, that having pulled off the U19 world championships might convince them otherwise. But recently, it has been limited to Ridder, Bemidji, North Dakota and Duluth; all good sized, etc.

I think I'm the "they" that brings up PB, etc. I'm sure they could plop media somewhere else, as they did at the DECC, which had a tiny pressbox. One thing that stops a lot of potential host sites is that they don't bid. Have no idea whether or not UW has bid LaBahn for FFs or for the WCHA tourney. I would guess that St. Thomas will host at some point in the future.

 

[pgb-ohio]

I would hope that press & media accomodations would be properly considered in the design of any new arena.
​​​​​​Pegula Arena where last years FF was played has an official seating capacity of 6014. I was hospitalized during the FF and can't recall, was it a sellout?

Not even close. I attended all three games. Seating on one side of the ice was entirely closed off to the public. A decent percentage of the open seats were filled.

Official Attendance for our Semi-Final game with Yale was 1,663. Official Attendance for the Championship Game with UMD was 2,008. Based on my informal observations, I believe those numbers to be accurate.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Still catching up on yesterday's posts...

Unsolicited advise, but I'd recommend building a new arena right, and not being afraid to aim a bit higher. I think that concourse level seating at Ridder is listed at 3,100; the other 300 are supposedly upstairs at club level and the suites. For tournaments, much of that is used up by media, support staff, and league personnel.

Your advice is always welcome; solicited or otherwise.

I've never watched a game in Ridder and thought, "This place is too big."

I guess all of us are a product of our individual experiences. After 20+ years, I've attended a few hundred games at the Schottenstein Center. About 50% of the time I've had the thought "This place is too big." It's only been the last couple of years, with our full set of upper level curtains, that I have been content.

Anyhow, this helps explain why I strongly believe that we shouldn't have too many seats in a new Women's Hockey arena.

There were years where I doubted that there were more than 300 people there for a WCHA quarterfinal, especially when the weather was bad and the game wasn't included in the season-ticket package. Youth teams are a big part of the attendance at GWH games, and it is always more challenging to fill the place for something that isn't on the schedule, because the youth teams don't attend. The feeling wasn't that there were too many seats; there were too few people, and removing any number of seats wouldn't have changed that. In any case, you don't build your rink for those few dates that are near the bottom of your average.

It is indeed challenging to fill the arena for games not on the originally published schedule. Intuitively one would think that the WCHA Playoffs and the Final Face-Off would draw strong crowds. Years of experience say No. Why? Beyond the reason you cite, it's an extremely busy time on the sports calendar. Potential attendees are being pulled in many directions, both as fans and as sports participants. And fans contemplating travel, especially air travel, will probably save their $$ for a hoped-for Frozen Four.

This is the main reason I cringe when fans wish for a WCHA Final Face-Off in Columbus, and believe we need an over-sized arena to accommodate an extra large crowd. "No need for overflow seating" doesn't begin to describe the situation. In fact, we'd struggle to draw a respectable crowd. I realize this is counter-intuitive. But it's the truth.

I get that this is heartbreaking for the dedicated, knowledgeable fan. For those fans, the tournament would be a hockey feast. But there's just not enough of them available to create overflow crowds.

Minnesota crowds in the range of 1,800 - 2,200 are fairly common. Would it improve the atmosphere to have a building with a capacity of 2,400 or fewer for such games? Maybe by a little, say five percent (if it is possible to quantify "atmosphere.") However, in order to achieve that theoretical gain, you have to sacrifice adding another 1,000 people for the games that matter most.

While undoubtedly true in Minneapolis, I think 2,400 would handle all of our Women's Hockey crowds in Columbus. At 2,400, I don't think we'd be sacrificing anybody.

Learn from what others have done, what's worked and what hasn't. If you build it with a small capacity, don't compound the problem by assuming that the average fan weighs 100 pounds and expect that they can fit on 16" of bench.

Most of the faults of Ridder involve something being planned too low rather than too high. Not enough restroom capacity, especially for women. Inadequate concessions. The concourse is too narrow in places, mostly by the concession areas, although not as bad as somewhere like the old DECC. The sightlines aren't great, as there is often too much metal and glass in the way, but not as problematic as the infamous netting at another venue that you know. One thing Ridder does well in comparison to arenas where the stands have a more gradual slope, is that it gets those 3K fans close to the action, which can create energy.

Excellent points all. I hope everything on this list is successfully addressed.

What ever your "dream home," I hope it becomes a reality!

Thanks!

 

[robertearle]

If seating is General Admission, then my phrasing was awkward. My original thought was that, based on the above quote, UW is willing to sell 300-400 seats twice. But it's never a problem because no-shows are always > 400.

Now I'm guessing that we're talking about the distribution of free tickets. Meaning the tickets are more like "invitations," and not really sales?

We're getting pretty far off into the weeds now, but at least one 'complication' to the whole question...

The Wisconsin Athletic Dept sells something called the "Red Card" to students. The Red Card "provides access to students to secure a student ticket, based on availability, to all home regular season women's basketball, volleyball, wrestling, softball and women's hockey events, all for just $25. This is nearly 70 home dates, giving you a terrific savings over individual game prices."

I only vaguely understand the mechanics of the Red Card, but for volleyball - where sellouts happen quite regularly, but where there will also often be some number of no-shows - there are a couple seating sections designated for student general admission available on a first come, first served basis. How far in advance a Red Card holder can 'get' one of those tickets, I don't know. But there isn't a separate line of students waiting outside for the doors to open, so they must be able to get them some amount of time in advance. With women's hockey, there are no reserved seat sections as there are for volleyball, so there are no designated 'student sections'. I assume that like volleyball, some number of tickets is allocated for Red Card students to access prior to game day and 'at the door'. How many tickets they allocate for 'Red Card' holders, how the count those in the overall totals, how many Red Cards they even sell, etc., no idea. But the 'sale price' for those tickets is 'nominal', to say the least.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

"Most of the faults of Ridder involve something being planned too low rather than too high. Not enough restroom capacity, especially for women. Inadequate concessions. The concourse is too narrow in places, mostly by the concession areas, although not as bad as somewhere like the old DECC."


If you think that's bad have your ever been in Michigan's Yost arena? You talk about narrow and cramped and the lines for the few women's restrooms are ridiculous. Heck, the visitors locker room is a tarped off section of the south concourse! But that's what you get with a building built in 1923 and not as an ice arena. There's a definite limit to how much upgrading you can do but they have no interest whatsoever in building a modern arena. Some programs are happy with outdated facilities.

 

[pgb-ohio]

We're getting pretty far off into the weeds now, but at least one 'complication' to the whole question...

The Wisconsin Athletic Dept sells something called the "Red Card" to students. The Red Card "provides access to students to secure a student ticket, based on availability, to all home regular season women's basketball, volleyball, wrestling, softball and women's hockey events, all for just $25. This is nearly 70 home dates, giving you a terrific savings over individual game prices."

I only vaguely understand the mechanics of the Red Card, but for volleyball - where sellouts happen quite regularly, but where there will also often be some number of no-shows - there are a couple seating sections designated for student general admission available on a first come, first served basis. How far in advance a Red Card holder can 'get' one of those tickets, I don't know. But there isn't a separate line of students waiting outside for the doors to open, so they must be able to get them some amount of time in advance. With women's hockey, there are no reserved seat sections as there are for volleyball, so there are no designated 'student sections'. I assume that like volleyball, some number of tickets is allocated for Red Card students to access prior to game day and 'at the door'. How many tickets they allocate for 'Red Card' holders, how the count those in the overall totals, how many Red Cards they even sell, etc., no idea. But the 'sale price' for those tickets is 'nominal', to say the least.

Got it.

OSU did something very similar back in the '90s. IIRC it was a punch card; but it may have been a Member ID card. Regardless, for a modest fee students could gain admission, at no additional charge, for several of the "Olympic" sports. Which included Men's Hockey games played at the State Fairgrounds. (In the facility now known as the Ohio Expo Center.) Ice was available because the ECHL Columbus Chill were using that building for their home rink. Capacity was around 6,000.

In any event, the program wreaked havoc with attendance numbers for a short while. Again if IIRC, over 3,000 students purchased the card. Someone decided that all of those cardholders should be counted as paying customers at the Fairgrounds games. So you'd have 1,500 people in the stands, and they were announcing paid attendance of almost 5,000.

Crowd reaction? Gales of laughter. Shouts of "Where?!" It made an otherwise good program pretty embarrassing. Fortunately higher-ups were paying attention, and put an end to the "bad stats" fairly quickly.

I doubt that the Red Card is involved in anything like that. But it certainly does complicate any effort to determine what the "real" attendance numbers are.


BTW, I updated my Average Annual Attendance Number for Wisconsin, using the 2,077 figure you came up with.

 

[osualum86]

We can chat about it at next weekends game but wouldn't the number you mentioned most likely keep us out of contention for hosting the WCHA championship or a second round NCAA playoff? I think hosting those should be a consideration for a new building. As a fan I certainly want the possibility of more post season games in our house. And wouldn't home ice be a benefit for our team to help advance in the tournaments?

As Robertearle indicated, hosting an NCAA Regional is based on finishing in the top four, not the rink capacity. Based on earlier posts, we will never host the WCHA Final Face Off here since we are too far away from the other schools. It would be nice to build something that holds 3,000 and get the Frozen Four here. Now that would be a nice home ice advantage. If we build something in the 2,000 - 2,500 range, the Frozen Four will be out of the question. We'll see what happens, and yes, you and I will chat about it in a couple days!

 

[osualum86]

My memory is foggy but has a women's only arena ever hosted a women's Frozen Four? But what about my other point? How big must an arena be to be awarded a WCHA final? That cherry isn't determined by rankings.

Answer to this is yes. Ridder Arena hosted the Frozen Four in 2018 and is hosting again in 2025. And I doubt if those are the only times the Frozen Four has been at Ridder. Not sure what the determination is for where the WCHA Final Face-Off is played. It has been at arenas other than Ridder in the past, but not in recent years.

 

[osualum86]

I would hope that press & media accomodations would be properly considered in the design of any new arena.
​​​​​​Pegula Arena where last years FF was played has an official seating capacity of 6014. I was hospitalized during the FF and can't recall, was it a sellout?

We were there and it was not even remotely close to a sellout. It was fun being there and we had a great crowd, but it was nowhere close to a sellout. So, if you are wondering, no, the Women's Frozen Four does not need to be played at a 6,000-seat arena. I am sure you read ARM's earlier post that the concourse seating at Ridder Arena is 3,100 and the luxury suites make up the other 300 seats. I know I said that I thought something in the low 2,000 range would be sufficient, but that doesn't mean I would not really want 3,000 (or more) seats. I am just trying to temper my expectations so that if and when they do build it (if I am still on this side of the ground when it gets done), I will not walk in mumbling to myself, "Where's the rest of it?"

 

[osualum86]

Never mind, I found it. Officisl attendance of the 2022 National Championship game is listed as 2008.

That sounds about right, a third full ... 4,000 empty seats. Then again, if you only count the available seating, (the entire one side was not open), that fraction/percentage gets a little better. Despite the arena being mostly empty, it was still a great atmosphere. There is something special about being there to watch your team win that first National Title. I am sorry you did not get to experience that! A lot of us were thinking about you and wondering how you were doing.

 

[osualum86]

It is indeed challenging to fill the arena for games not on the originally published schedule. Intuitively one would think that the WCHA Playoffs and the Final Face-Off would draw strong crowds. Years of experience say No. Why? Beyond the reason you cite, it's an extremely busy time on the sports calendar. Potential attendees are being pulled in many directions, both as fans and as sports participants. And fans contemplating travel, especially air travel, will probably save their $$ for a hoped-for Frozen Four.

Your last sentence is exactly why Mrs 86 and I don't make it up to the WCHA Final Face-Off. We don't have the coin to jump on a plane and fly to Minneapolis, then turn around and jump on a plane to fly to the Frozen Four. We are hoping OSU hosts an NCAA Regional, and we are actually going to try to drive the 12 hours to Duluth for the Frozen Four if the Buckeyes are there. One of the things that made the 2022 Frozen Four so enjoyable was the reasonable drive to Penn State (5 hours and change to State College from here). I am looking forward to 2026 when they host it again. I am actually hoping Erie bids on and hosts another Frozen Four as that is even closer for us. They seem to host every ten years (hosted in 2011 and 2021), so I guess they won't be getting the Frozen Four until 2031.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

There is something special about being there to watch your team win that first National Title. I am sorry you did not get to experience that! A lot of us were thinking about you and wondering how you were doing.

I did get to watch it from my hospital bed. The one bright spot in that hellish experience!

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Reflecting on Penn State hosting the last FF in an arena shared by both men & women's programs, if OSU decides to build an arena that would be shared by both programs then we could possibly host conference & national women's championships.