What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

ObamaRama 8

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: ObamaRama 8

5) Lastly, this has nothing to do with KSM's rights. What it has to do is what the United States stands for. A kangaroo trial at Gitmo isn't what this country is about. .

While I agree with most of your rant, why are their still going to be "kangaroo trials" for other detainees?
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

1) Who cares what KSM has asked for? He's subject to the US justice system's whims, not his own. Since when do we let the criminal dictate the trial. :rolleyes:

You really need to lay off the bourbon for breakfast. In any other criminal proceeding if you have a defendant that is ready to plead guilty and accept the harshest punishment possible, you do not waste the time and money to go to trial to hopefully come up with a verdict and punishment that this scumbag has already agreed to accept. To do so is dumb beyond belief.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

4) Your ACLU fixation is stupid. So is your own muling for the Bush administration. A fair trial is the cornerstone of our legal system, and I'll say again it was put in place by people far smarter than yourself. Where does your arrogance come from that you know more about how the legal system in this country should work than the Founding Fathers? I'm going to need a little more convincing on this one. :rolleyes:
Hmmm - well, let's see. Barbary pirates from Morocco seized an American ship in 1784, and the first Barbary War began in 1801. I'd say that's pretty close to being at the time of the Founding Fathers. Did they demand that the pirates captured during that conflict be brought to the United States and tried in US Criminal Courts? No, they did not.

A kangaroo trial at Gitmo...
And our enemies will see a Federal Court case differently? I don't think so.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

You really need to lay off the bourbon for breakfast. In any other criminal proceeding if you have a defendant that is ready to plead guilty and accept the harshest punishment possible, you do not waste the time and money to go to trial to hopefully come up with a verdict and punishment that this scumbag has already agreed to accept. To do so is dumb beyond belief.

You need to go back to watching porn full time and staying off political threads. If a defendent wants to accept the death penalty for a non capital crime, you don't give it to them "because that's what they asked for". :rolleyes: Similarly, they can't enter into a plea with the arresting officer for example, it has to go through the proper channels - as in...wait for it...a plea entered in court.

Lynah,

This has nothing to do with how our enemies perceive us. Again people are not looking at it from the perspective of what the US stands for.

As far as Barbary goes, you're making my point. If these people had been captured and housed on the battle field, military rules apply. In fact I'd have preferred they died in battle over there. However they've now been held in custody on a base far from the battlefield for years. The Supreme Court has said some legal proceeding needs to take place for people held in a US controlled area. Options are limited based, and this is the best of some not very good choices.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

You need to go back to watching porn full time and staying off political threads. If a defendent wants to accept the death penalty for a non capital crime, you don't give it to them "because that's what they asked for". :rolleyes: Similarly, they can't enter into a plea with the arresting officer for example, it has to go through the proper channels - as in...wait for it...a plea entered in court.

Murder is non-capital crime? what the hell are you talking about buckwheat?

Of course it has to go through the proper channels (civilian or military). But the point is if the defendant cops a plea, there is no need for a goddam trial. Period.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Murder is non-capital crime? what the hell are you talking about buckwheat?

Of course it has to go through the proper channels (civilian or military). But the point is if the defendant cops a plea, there is no need for a goddam trial. Period.

Hate to distract you from admiring Ron Jeremy's work, but you stated that you let the defendent plead to the harshest possible punishment. I say that's not how it works, if someone wants to accept the death penalty for causing a car accident for example, the courts won't accept that. Criminals don't get to decide what they feel is just. The judicial system does (and in fact judges are free to reject plea arrangements).
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

No cameras allowed in Federal courtrooms.

And let's not even start with the TV preening by both sides, and the judge, let alone the legal and other flaws in the state's case against OJ. Career federal prosecutors and investigators are no slouches, especially in high stakes cases.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Criminals don't get to decide what they feel is just. The judicial system does (and in fact judges are free to reject plea arrangements).

I know you are probably half in the bag right now, but do you really think a judge is going to reject a guilty plea and a death sentence for a man who orchestrated the murder of 3,000 people? :confused:
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Lynah,

This has nothing to do with how our enemies perceive us. Again people are not looking at it from the perspective of what the US stands for.
So you're saying that a US military tribunal is, in fact, a "kangaroo court?" And it's not just that it would be perceived that way by our enemies? That's a pretty low blow to the people who work in our military justice system...

As far as Barbary goes, you're making my point. If these people had been captured and housed on the battle field, military rules apply. In fact I'd have preferred they died in battle over there. However they've now been held in custody on a base far from the battlefield for years. The Supreme Court has said some legal proceeding needs to take place for people held in a US controlled area. Options are limited based, and this is the best of some not very good choices.
Who cares where they're housed? If a US soldier were captured in France in 1941 and then shipped to a POW camp in Germany, should he have then been subject to a criminal trial in Nazi courts just because his feet touched German soil? Absolutely not. POW prisons are, by definition, "far from the battlefield," or they wouldn't be very secure, now, would they? An enemy combatant's status is a lot more like a POW than a common criminal - he doesn't belong in civil court.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

All of this rant is based on irrelevant BS and your own warped opinion.

Lets take a few points:

1) Who cares what KSM has asked for? He's subject to the US justice system's whims, not his own. Since when do we let the criminal dictate the trial. :rolleyes:

2) What does a civilian trial have to do with the Fort Hood situation? Desparate attempt at a strawman argument there.

3) Who says lawyers muling for a terrorist is a trivial matter? Lawyers have to interract with all kinds of insavory defendents and if any of them break the law there's a system in place to deal with them.

4) Your ACLU fixation is stupid. So is your own muling for the Bush administration. A fair trial is the cornerstone of our legal system, and I'll say again it was put in place by people far smarter than yourself. Where does your arrogance come from that you know more about how the legal system in this country should work than the Founding Fathers? I'm going to need a little more convincing on this one. :rolleyes:

5) Lastly, this has nothing to do with KSM's rights. What it has to do is what the United States stands for. A kangaroo trial at Gitmo isn't what this country is about. Putting people in court, regardless of how obviously guilty they may be, is how the system works, a system that's withstood far more serious crisis than this one. That's something the righties have never been able to figure out, and something a conservative court has repeatedly rebuked them on (you can't just hold people indefinitely forever at the President's whim). Much like how this country doesn't sanction torture. Its not out of sympathy for the criminal, its because that's not what the country was founded on. The problem is that due to actions taken previously, and subsequent court rulings, these idiots are now in limbo. The best solution is to send them through the legal system like previous terrorist prosecutions before them and close Gitmo because its doing far more harm than good.

I'll respond in order. And I'll ignore your usual insults. Would you be struck mute if your were to simply post your opinions without the bilge?

1. On this one you've internalized Eric Holder's talking points perfectly. BTW, did you watch his pitiful performance before the senators. I found myself actually feeling sorry for him, he was so weak. Anyway, usually it's a good idea to go with a sure thing. And in this case KSM had agreed to plead guilty and accept execution. And how do you arrive at the notion that a military tribunal isn't part of the US justice system?

2. I was trying to analogize the notion that a trial in civilian court would somehow, magically, show potential jihadists how good our system is and thus possibly disuade them from committing their planned attacks. As to "Dr." Hasan, since he's the most recent jihadist to murder innocent people on American soil, I was applying that concept to him and suggesting that a "civilian" trial would have been unlikely to turn him around on his mission.

3. You implied it. I merely want to be more assertive and not wait 'till it happens again to bring a prosecution. Somebody could get hurt.

4. The ACLU doesn't think it's stupid. In fact, through their John Adams project, they've spent over 4 million bucks to get their pals in the Obama administration to bring this matter to civilian court. You evidently are unwilling to accept that the ACLU and other liberal lawyers' (including lawyers from Holder's firm) want criminal charges brought against Bush/Cheney and that a civilian trial, with its mountains of discovery, offers them the best opportunity. Since I'm assuming you'd agree with that outcome, I can understand why you'd dismiss my arguments. But how about a little candor on the subject from "Mr. Transparency" and all the little transparencies?


A fair trial IS the cornerstone of our legal system FOR U.S. CITIZENS. Again with a reference as to how smart the founding fathers were. Agreed. But I'm trying to think of a more irrelevant point and can't come up with one. You see, those founding fathers of whom you are right to be in awe, created a supreme court to rule on the consitutionality of various matters. And this court, on multiple occasions, has upheld the permissability of military tribunals.

Fortunatly I don't have to be as smart as the founding fathers, since I'm having this discussion with you, not them.

5. Interesting, a trial before a military tribunal is a "kangaroo court." How do you arrive at that conclusion? And do you therefore want all terrorists tried in civilian courts? I guess my bottom line is that if a military tribunal was good enough for Hermann Goering, it's good enough for KSM. What was that assertion? Oh yes, "you can't just hold people indefinitely forever (which I believe is the same thing) at a president's whim." Interesting, since Mr. Holder said that is exactly what would happen to KSM and the others if they were acquitted because they're ENEMY COMBATANTS, not American criminals.


The quickest way to get these defendants "out of limbo" is to try them in military tribunals and then execute them. Where is the evidence that Gitmo is "doing more harm than good?" You think that may be the case and perhaps you're right. But I notice "Mr. Change" has kept it open far longer than his ACLU pals (and you, presumably) are happy with. I'm wondering if there's a reason. If you don't mind, perhaps we could have "torture" argument on another occasion.
 
Last edited:
Re: ObamaRama 8

1. On this one you've internalized Eric Holder's talking points perfectly. BTW, did you watch his pitiful performance before the senators. I found myself actually feeling sorry for him, he was so weak. Anyway, usually it's a good idea to go with a sure thing. And in this case KSM had agreed to plead guilty and accept execution. And how do you arrive at the notion that a military tribunal isn't part of the US justice system?

2. I was trying to analogize the notion that a trial in civilian court would somehow, magically, show potential jihadists how good our system is and thus possibly disuade them from committing their planned attacks. As to "Dr." Hasan, since he's the most recent jihadist to murder innocent people on American soil, I was applying that concept to him and suggesting that a "civilian" trial would have been unlikely to turn him around on his mission.

3. You implied it. I merely want to be more assertive and not wait 'till it happens again to bring a prosecution. Somebody could get hurt.

4. The ACLU doesn't think it's stupid. In fact, through their John Adams project, they've spent over 4 million bucks to get their pals in the Obama administration to bring this matter to civilian court. You evidently are unwilling to accept that the ACLU and other liberal lawyers' (including lawyers from Holder's firm) want criminal charges brought against Bush/Cheney and that a civilian trial, with its mountains of discovery, offers them the best opportunity. Since I'm assuming you'd agree with that outcome, I can understand why you'd dismiss my arguments. But how about a little candor on the subject from "Mr. Transparency" and all the little transparencies?


A fair trial IS the cornerstone of our legal system FOR U.S. CITIZENS. Again with a reference as to how smart the founding fathers were. Agreed. But I'm trying to think of a more irrelevant point and can't come up with one. You see, those founding fathers of whom you are right to be in awe, created a supreme court to rule on the consitutionality of various matters. And this court, on multiple occasions, has upheld the permissability of military tribunals.

Fortunatly I don't have to be as smart as the founding fathers, since I'm having this discussion with you, not them.

5. Interesting, a trial before a military tribunal is a "kangaroo court." How do you arrive at that conclusion? And do you therefore want all terrorists tried in civilian courts? I guess my bottom line is that if a military tribunal was good enough for Hermann Goering, it's good enough for KSM. What was that assertion? Oh yes, "you can't just hold people indefinitely forever (which I believe is the same thing) at a president's whim." Interesting, since Mr. Holder said that is exactly what would happen to KSM and the others if they were acquitted because they're ENEMY COMBATANTS, not American criminals.


The quickest way to get these defendants "out of limbo" is to try them in military tribunals and then execute them. Where is the evidence that Gitmo is "doing more harm than good?" You think that may be the case and perhaps you're right. But I notice "Mr. Change" has kept it open far longer than his ACLU pals (and you, presumably) are happy with. I'm wondering if there's a reason. If you don't mind, perhaps we could have "torture" argument on another occasion.

1) I have no idea what Eric Holder's talking point are, but my opinion on this has remained the same on this. I have no problem with holding them for a time while they have intelligence to provide. 8 years after capture however in some cases I really doubt there's much more to be learned here, so now its time for a trial. Who the AG is doesn't matter, nor his public performance. You're spending too much time turning this into a Bush admin vs Obama admin beef, when its a lot bigger than that.

Regarding KSM, he probably is looking for martyrdom. Why give it to him by letting him dictate the terms? He can go through the process like any other murderer and if ultimately (and most likely) he gets his wish to be executed, it'll be on the US justice system's terms, not his own. Again how he's not the focus here, our system of laws is. I don't care what the "sure bet" is :rolleyes: . I care what the right way to do things is.

2) Again, you're focusing on terrorists. I'm focusing on the what the United States stands for. I don't give a rat's @ ss what enemies think of us, or the trial. I'm more concerned with upholding the principles this country was founded on.

3) Implied nothing of the sort. Moving on...

4) I don't care what the ACLU's angle is here, as this is far more important than them, Judicial Watch, or whoever else wants to file a brief in this matter. For the umpteenth time, its about how the United States of America operates, not some ulterior motive the ACLU might have to embarass a previous administration. Who cares aside from themselves and their opposing partisans (yourself apparently)?

5) The problem with military tribunals, and its been a problem that has plagued both administrations, is how to set them up to pass legal muster. There's already been some starts and stops in this regard as again what was thought to be legal in the previous admin's eyes (which to be charitable can be described as pretty much anything) turned out not to be so. So, instead of creating a whole new system of rules, why not just prosecute them based on the existing rules in the civil court system that have already been used to convict terrorists? :confused:

Not only would you get a quicker verdict in that case as there'd be less appeals on the grounds that the whole set up was flawed, but you'd also have iron clad legitimacy from the friends of the US (again, who cares about what the enemies think) as the proceeding took place with 200+ years of the country's legal precedent as the guiding principle.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

I was trying to analogize the notion that a trial in civilian court would somehow, magically, show potential jihadists how good our system is and thus possibly disuade them from committing their planned attacks. .

Who cares? My God, will the madness never end? Our enemies are going to remain our enemies regardless of the method for getting rid of this scumbag. The fact is the Feds have chosen to try him in this fashion. Instead of endlessly biotching about it, let's move forward as a country and insist that the guy gets nothing less than a noose or a needle.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Who cares? My God, will the madness never end? Our enemies are going to remain our enemies regardless of the method for getting rid of this scumbag. The fact is the Feds have chosen to try him in this fashion. Instead of endlessly biotching about it, let's move forward as a country and insist that the guy gets nothing less than a noose or a needle.

I agree, with one minor caveat: the "Feds" haven't made this decision, President Obama's Attorney General (with presumably no input from the boss) did.
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

1) I have no idea what Eric Holder's talking point are, but my opinion on this has remained the same on this. I have no problem with holding them for a time while they have intelligence to provide. 8 years after capture however in some cases I really doubt there's much more to be learned here, so now its time for a trial. Who the AG is doesn't matter, nor his public performance. You're spending too much time turning this into a Bush admin vs Obama admin beef, when its a lot bigger than that.

Regarding KSM, he probably is looking for martyrdom. Why give it to him by letting him dictate the terms? He can go through the process like any other murderer and if ultimately (and most likely) he gets his wish to be executed, it'll be on the US justice system's terms, not his own. Again how he's not the focus here, our system of laws is. I don't care what the "sure bet" is :rolleyes: . I care what the right way to do things is.

2) Again, you're focusing on terrorists. I'm focusing on the what the United States stands for. I don't give a rat's @ ss what enemies think of us, or the trial. I'm more concerned with upholding the principles this country was founded on.

3) Implied nothing of the sort. Moving on...

4) I don't care what the ACLU's angle is here, as this is far more important than them, Judicial Watch, or whoever else wants to file a brief in this matter. For the umpteenth time, its about how the United States of America operates, not some ulterior motive the ACLU might have to embarass a previous administration. Who cares aside from themselves and their opposing partisans (yourself apparently)?

5) The problem with military tribunals, and its been a problem that has plagued both administrations, is how to set them up to pass legal muster. There's already been some starts and stops in this regard as again what was thought to be legal in the previous admin's eyes (which to be charitable can be described as pretty much anything) turned out not to be so. So, instead of creating a whole new system of rules, why not just prosecute them based on the existing rules in the civil court system that have already been used to convict terrorists? :confused:

Not only would you get a quicker verdict in that case as there'd be less appeals on the grounds that the whole set up was flawed, but you'd also have iron clad legitimacy from the friends of the US (again, who cares about what the enemies think) as the proceeding took place with 200+ years of the country's legal precedent as the guiding principle.

No cards
 
Re: ObamaRama 8

Wither the teabaggers?

"They’re fractured at the organization level, I think mainly because there are a lot of people who have not had managerial experience who all of a sudden are thrust into the limelight and become intoxicated with it. And when a potential rift comes up, instead of handling it and maybe agreeing to disagree, they splinter and go off on their own.”

The organizational chaos — combined with a widening apathy at the edges of the movement — has produced a growing consensus among local, state and national tea party leaders that for the movement to evolve from the loose conglomeration of fired-up activists who mobilized this summer to register their dissatisfaction with Obama and Congress at town hall protests and marches across the country into a sustainable bloc with the power to shape the GOP and swing elections, it will require the emergence of a national leader, group or structure.

That fear is echoed by Glenn Galls, a Hot Springs, Ark., tea party organizer frustrated with the focus of Arkansas’s state-level tea party groups on national races and issues such as cap and trade and health care.

“If the tea party movement is going to continue to thrive and to grow and to have influence,” he said, “it must start coming together and coalescing and finding its purpose in life, because if it doesn’t, the excitement will fade like it does from anything else.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29744.html
 
Last edited:
Re: ObamaRama 8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFRTfBcrPLc&feature=related

The Executive Director of the ACLU says he wants "justice" for the terrorists held at Gitmo. And one way of getting that, he believes, is by bringing prosecutions against Bush, Cheney, Rice, et al.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcC6bTHosx0

There are others who have a greater claim to "justice" than the terrorist murderers at Gitmo. But the ACLU does not weep for them.

And again, who cares? This weird obsession of yours with the ACLU is irrelevant to the important issues. Their motives are about as useful as Judicial Watch's during a SCOTUS confirmation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top