Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

[bronconick]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Mitt Romney basically forces people to flip flop to support him. The Republicans got a lot of deserved play out of Pelosi's stupid "We have to pass this bill to see what's in it" and their next presidential candidate runs on "You have to elect me to find out what I'm actually planning to do."

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

I agree here too. I think what Bob was getting at was the major issues of the day will not be solved (i.e. entitlements, overall spending, the actual role of the federal government, etc.)

Well, to a large extent these aren't "problems" that can be solved, they are long term political battles that will continue as long as voters have different opinions.

Upton Sinclair said, "the history of the United States is the battle between business and democracy." That won't be "solved." It will just oscillate onward forever, with first one side gaining the ascendancy (democracy 1932-80) and then the other (business 1980-present).

A "problem" is something "SMART" (specific, measurable, actionable, realistic, and time-bound) like "how can we slow the growth of the budget deficit for the next ten years?" or "how can we promote economic growth during the next ten years?" or "how can we reduce the number of people below the poverty line during the next ten years?" Those are problems that can be solved, and whether we solve them (or even try) is what elections are about.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Well, to a large extent these aren't "problems" that can be solved, they are long term political battles that will continue as long as voters have different opinions.

Upton Sinclair once said, "the history of the United States is the battle of business against democracy." That won't be "solved." It will just oscillate onward forever.

I suppose. That's too bad. The Constitution should have been more clear about the differences between Federal and State power I guess.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

I agree here too. I think what Bob was getting at was the major issues of the day will not be solved (i.e. entitlements, overall spending, the actual role of the federal government, etc.). No question in my mind though that policy does matter and Mitt Romney is a train wreck on policy.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. I don't see either of them doing nearly enough to save our nation from fiscal ruin. And if that's the case, nuances on one policy or another aren't going to matter worth squat. When you're broke, and in debt almost beyond measure, you have bigger worries.

Anyone here who thinks either of these candidates have what it takes and can truly right the ship, please raise your hand.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Anyone here who thinks either of these candidates have what it takes and can truly right the ship, please raise your hand.

The ship is never righted or sunk by the captain. The captain can either do smart or dumb things, but ultimately the ship only cares about physics.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

I suppose. That's too bad. The Constitution should have been more clear about the differences between Federal and State power I guess.

The Constitution did not legislate human nature. The tension in our political environment is the tension between different interest groups. The whole idea was to set the rigging so the tensions canceled each other out and drove the ship forward.

But we now have half the sailors trying to cut through the rigging, and yelling "seamanship is slavery!" And we wonder why the ship is going in circles.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

The ship is never righted or sunk by the captain. The captain can either do smart or dumb things, but ultimately the ship only cares about physics.

Ships certainly can be sunk by captains. Though in this case I generally agree with your point that the president by himself, can't fix things. Of course having candidates that seem to be honest and having a clue about actually fixing things would be nice. But, then again, such a candidate would get slaughtered for such honesty. Look at the 47 percent mess. Not the best example as it had a partisan spin on it, but really it way understated how bad things are.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Ships certainly can be sunk by captains. Though in this case I generally agree with your point that the president by himself, can't fix things. Of course having candidates that seem to be honest and having a clue about actually fixing things would be nice. But, then again, such a candidate would get slaughtered for such honesty. Look at the 47 percent mess. Not the best example as it had a partisan spin on it, but really it way understated how bad things are.

True, but dig deeper and start to figure out what policies created the 47% in the first place. The tax code is a sham but no one on Capital Hill will address it properly in detail because every tax deduction has a lot of lobby money behind it.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

But we now have half the sailors trying to cut through the rigging, and yelling "seamanship is slavery!" And we wonder why the ship is going in circles.

darn those public sector unions.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

True, but dig deeper and start to figure out what policies created the 47% in the first place. The tax code is a sham but no one on Capital Hill will address it properly in detail because every tax deduction has a lot of lobby money behind it.

Agreed on the tax code. There's a whole lot than can be done better, and fairer, there and many other places. But, I'd argue the fiscal imbalances, such as a $1.2 trillion federal deficit, are so massive now that they are getting beyond the ability to fix by tweaking the tax code or whatever. People talk about a fiscal cliff if the cuts kick in, what, at the end of the year? If that's true, it's a sign of doom. Because those cuts that will supposedly lead to a fiscal cliff at the end of this year are far milder than what would need to be done to get the federal budget remotely toward being balanced. The tax increases/spending cuts necessary to do that would then seem to drive us off the highest cliff in the entire world. The numbers are beyond scary and I'm afraid we're simply living on borrowed time, literally.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Agreed on the tax code. There's a whole lot than can be done better, and fairer, there and many other places. But, I'd argue the fiscal imbalances, such as a $1.2 trillion federal deficit, are so massive now that they are getting beyond the ability to fix by tweaking the tax code or whatever. People talk about a fiscal cliff if the cuts kick in, what, at the end of the year? If that's true, it's a sign of doom. Because those cuts that will supposedly lead to a fiscal cliff at the end of this year are far milder than what would need to be done to get the federal budget remotely toward being balanced. The tax increases/spending cuts necessary to do that would then seem to drive us off the highest cliff in the entire world. The numbers are beyond scary and I'm afraid we're simply living on borrowed time, literally.

Well, if we want cuts to happen then maybe we need to let them happen? The fiscal cliff is no scarier to me then what could have happened in 2008 if the bailout hadn't occurred or what would have happened if we had defaulted instead of increasing the debt ceiling. Bottom line is we've been band-aiding ourselves along during a time where things could have been as bad as they were during the Great Depression. The fact that we have band-aided it along is almost a miracle in itself

I still find it amazing that the greatest country and economy on earth almost accomplished completely destroying its own banking and auto industries. Two industries where most of the world thinks America first.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

You can always tell when conservatives are about to lose an election when they start with the "we're doomed" talk.

Look, far from being insurmountable, the fiscal problems of this country are easily solvable. Put taxes back at Clinton rates, cut back military from ending wars and other savings, means test Medicare, get US off of foreign energy sources and we're there. Now one would come back and argue "there's no political will" to do so, I beg to differ. If Obama is re-elected, a gun is now placed to Congress' collective noggins. It now demands they engage in a grand bargain of tax hikes, military cuts, and domestic spending cuts. Obama suffers no negative consquences because he's never running for office again. Itch McConnell and The Boner don't have that luxury nor do their members. Look for a deal to be passed during the lame duck session to start righting the ship.

Beyond that, what's left to accomplish in an Obama 2nd term? Really from a legislative standpoint its immigration reform and energy independence (assuming budget deal gets done this year). That's not a lot to ask after issues such as health care are already decided.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Well, if we want cuts to happen then maybe we need to let them happen? The fiscal cliff is no scarier to me then what could have happened in 2008 if the bailout hadn't occurred or what would have happened if we had defaulted instead of increasing the debt ceiling. Bottom line is we've been band-aiding ourselves along during a time where things could have been as bad as they were during the Great Depression. The fact that we have band-aided it along is almost a miracle in itself

I still find it amazing that the greatest country and economy on earth almost accomplished completely destroying its own banking and auto industries. Two industries where most of the world thinks America first.

We've largely borrowed against the future in order to feel a lot less pain in the last 4-5 years. We can't keep borrowing against the future forever. When that stops, it's going to be mightly painful, and the longer we wait, the more painful it will be. The fiscal cliff they're talking about if the cuts happen at the end of this year is child's play compared to what needs to be done to put the federal fiscal house in order.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

You can always tell when conservatives are about to lose an election when they start with the "we're doomed" talk.

Look, far from being insurmountable, the fiscal problems of this country are easily solvable. Put taxes back at Clinton rates, cut back military from ending wars and other savings, means test Medicare, get US off of foreign energy sources and we're there. Now one would come back and argue "there's no political will" to do so, I beg to differ. If Obama is re-elected, a gun is now placed to Congress' collective noggins. It now demands they engage in a grand bargain of tax hikes, military cuts, and domestic spending cuts. Obama suffers no negative consquences because he's never running for office again. Itch McConnell and The Boner don't have that luxury nor do their members. Look for a deal to be passed during the lame duck session to start righting the ship.

Beyond that, what's left to accomplish in an Obama 2nd term? Really from a legislative standpoint its immigration reform and energy independence (assuming budget deal gets done this year). That's not a lot to ask after issues such as health care are already decided.

I give my we're doomed schpeel regularly, you should know that. I just get more ammunition all the time as the numbers get worse.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Beyond that, what's left to accomplish in an Obama 2nd term? Really from a legislative standpoint its immigration reform and energy independence (assuming budget deal gets done this year). That's not a lot to ask after issues such as health care are already decided.

but when does 'THE ONE WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR' lower the oceans back down and drop the temps and all that stuff he promised before?

no, but I hope you're right about the compromise about to be made.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

Of course having candidates that seem to be honest and having a clue about actually fixing things would be nice. But, then again, such a candidate would get slaughtered for such honesty.

I don't actually think they would get slaughtered for the reason you are implying, though.

One reason candidates are vague is not to offend, but more likely they simply don't want to tie themselves to a particular premise that people honestly and thoughtfully disagree with. Look at this forum here. Many voices, usually sincere, and yet almost zero agreement even on what constitutes our major problems.

The "47%" crack is a great case in point. It's not that people became offended because Romney voiced some deep hidden truth. It's people were shocked that Romney is so obviously clueless about something so fundamental. It's as if a candidate said "if you elect me I will pray to God and our deficit will disappear," and then when people's jaw dropped he reacted by saying "people just don't want to face fundamental religious values." No, it's that people think you're crazy for appearing to actually think that way.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

but when does 'THE ONE WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR' lower the oceans back down and drop the temps and all that stuff he promised before?

no, but I hope you're right about the compromise about to be made.

Well, in North Carolina, they made it illegal for the ocean to rise anymore. So they're ahead of the rest of us.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

I don't actually think they would get slaughtered for the reason you are implying, though.

One reason candidates are vague is not to offend, but more likely they simply don't want to tie themselves to a particular premise that people honestly and thoughtfully disagree with. Look at this forum here. Many voices, usually sincere, and yet almost zero agreement even on what constitutes our major problems.

The "47%" crack is a great case in point. It's not that people became offended because Romney voiced some deep hidden truth. It's people were shocked that Romney is so obviously clueless about something so fundamental. It's as if a candidate said "if you elect me I will pray to God and our deficit will disappear," and then when people's jaw dropped he reacted by saying "people just don't want to face fundamental religious values." No, it's that people think you're crazy for appearing to actually think that way.

You give the voting public more credit than I do. I don't think seniors want to hear that their health care is unsustainable and they are leaving future generations to pick up much of the tab. I don't think defense hawks want to hear that we can't afford to spend on defense what we have been spending. and on and on. I don't think all sorts of people want to hear that what they're getting from the government is unsustainable to the tune of $1.2 trillion a year (that's what, $4,000 annually for ever man, woman, and child?).

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

You give the voting public more credit than I do.

Well, yes. I am a liberal.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XXIV: Forward ... pause ... rewind ... play

I don't think all sorts of people want to hear that what they're getting from the government is unsustainable to the tune of $1.2 trillion a year (that's what, $4,000 annually for ever man, woman, and child?).

People don't want to hear that their interests are "special interests," that's true. But that wasn't what drove the revulsion to the 47% comment. That was Mittens saying, "Are there no workhouses?!" That's not policy, it's just his complete insulation inside his Fortress of Privilege.