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Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

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Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

LynahFan said:
Solar energy use by public utilities is modern snake oil, sold by shysters and bought by people who can't do math.
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Of course, it's decimal dust compared to all the public money that's been poured into our kindhearted private interests in the energy industry. And that's not even considering the blood and treasure expended in resource wars, propping up tyrannies, etc.
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Kepler said:
Of course, it's decimal dust compared to all the public money that's been poured into our kindhearted private interests in the energy industry. And that's not even considering the blood and treasure expended in resource wars, propping up tyrannies, etc.
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Absolutely true - but at least there is something there that has been worth propping up. The fossil fuels industry has produced an energy infrastructure capable of supporting the needs of the economy for the last 150 years. Large-scale solar has produced, well, decimal dust.
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

LynahFan said:
Absolutely true - but at least there is something there that has been worth propping up. The fossil fuels industry has produced an energy infrastructure capable of supporting the needs of the economy for the last 150 years. Large-scale solar has produced, well, decimal dust.
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Fair criticism. However, I am still under the impression (no doubt because of the brainwashing) that the scientific conventional wisdom is that renewables in general and solar in particular must eventually be the primary sources for both the power grid and (probably with some sort of middle steps) transportation. If that's true, then why* doesn't it make sense to have public investment in renewables?

(* I'm looking for something specific to the technologies that makes this a bad idea. If the "reason" is because in your world government investment is always bad then let's just take that as ideologically read.)
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

LynahFan said:
Absolutely true - but at least there is something there that has been worth propping up. The fossil fuels industry has produced an energy infrastructure capable of supporting the needs of the economy for the last 150 years. Large-scale solar has produced, well, decimal dust.
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So, how would that Fossil Fuel thing work if there were no Sun? Course, there wouldn't be a planet either. That would solve everyone's problem I guess.
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Kepler said:
Fair criticism. However, I am still under the impression (no doubt because of the brainwashing) that the scientific conventional wisdom is that renewables in general and solar in particular must eventually be the primary sources for both the power grid and (probably with some sort of middle steps) transportation. If that's true, then why* doesn't it make sense to have public investment in renewables?

(* I'm looking for something specific to the technologies that makes this a bad idea. If the "reason" is because in your world government investment is always bad then let's just take that as ideologically read.)
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The specific issue with solar is the diffuseness of the source. Even if you had 100% efficient cells that cost $0 per square foot to make, we still would not be able to afford the real estate and maintenance (cleaning) costs to produce and transport the electricity to everyone, to say nothing of the storage/backup generation capability. Solar is not a technology problem - even if you dismiss ALL issues with the technology with the wave of your hand, you still can't produce enough electricity to replace the fossil fuel powered grid. Solar is a physics problem - the source itself is just too diffuse and too intermittent.

I am all for public investment in energy sources which have a possibility of coming to fruition (modern fission, fusion, etc) - I'm not *that* ideologically pure. But when a 1-page analysis can prove that a given idea won't work, it's probably not where we should invest our money.
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Kepler said:
Fair criticism. However, I am still under the impression (no doubt because of the brainwashing) that the scientific conventional wisdom is that renewables in general and solar in particular must eventually be the primary sources for both the power grid and (probably with some sort of middle steps) transportation. If that's true, then why* doesn't it make sense to have public investment in renewables?

(* I'm looking for something specific to the technologies that makes this a bad idea. If the "reason" is because in your world government investment is always bad then let's just take that as ideologically read.)
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Because there is no economic incentive to do this other than government grants. The market cannot sustain these renewables because the technology isn't there yet. I assure you people are working on this behind the scenes and once there is a breakthrough these will be manufacturered and available all over the place because there is profit to be made. Hybrids are getting better but they are a long way off before you get a safe, affordable electric or solar car that people not ultra environmentalists want to drive.
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Kepler said:
(* I'm looking for something specific to the technologies that makes this a bad idea. If the "reason" is because in your world government investment is always bad then let's just take that as ideologically read.)
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It's not a bad idea investing in solar, wind, water (hydro), earth (geothermal), much better than subsidy for corn and of all things oil and gas.

I really don't have a problem waiting since the price for solar generations has dropped 50%, one reason why Solyndra went bankrupt. Although I still question why energy department would invest all that money AFTER the crash in the photovoltaic market and should have known their cost advantage had disappeared.

We'll just have to see if Germans can increase electricity production from 2% to 25% in next 20 years from solar. with $12billion euro/year subsidy. still cheaper than our oil/gas subsidy.

The German solar PV industry installed 7,400 MW from nearly one-quarter million individual systems in 2010, and there is now 16,500 MW of solar PV capacity on line in Germany. Solar PV provided 12 TWh (billion kilowatt-hours) of electricity in 2010, about 2% of total electricity
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Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

dxmnkd316 said:
Let's call that Plan B.
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Mmmmm nawww call that C.... Plan B is we (United States and the free world) have far more ships, aircraft, and surveillance systems to track each and every ship, speed boat, and dingy that in the attempt to seize the shipping lanes results in the automatic sinking of all Iranian affiliated vessels. If they (Iran) try and unleash the 800 LB Gorilla in the room (Hezbollah) the most sophisticated terror network ever on the free world then plan C become plan A. And if you are Ron Paulian and need an act of war to use military action.... They have already plotted to commit an act of terror on US soil which is an act of war.
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

GopherBigGuy911 said:
Mmmmm nawww call that C.... Plan B is we (United States and the free world) have far more ships, aircraft, and surveillance systems to track each and every ship, speed boat, and dingy that in the attempt to seize the shipping lanes results in the automatic sinking of all Iranian affiliated vessels. If they (Iran) try and unleash the 800 LB Gorilla in the room (Hezbollah) the most sophisticated terror network ever on the free world then plan C become plan A. And if you are Ron Paulian and need an act of war to use military action.... They have already plotted to commit an act of terror on US soil which is an act of war.
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*Ahem* That was a figure of speech. :D
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Now would also be a good time for Russia and China and the Arab League to all tell Iran, "we don't have your back."

I don't know how Iran thinks it can "blockade" the Strait. The terrorism scenario was scuttling tankers to create a bottleneck, but that was prefaced on being a non-state actor (nobody to punish). To attempt to do that with a surface navy would be to commit suicide.
 
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Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

During the "tanker war" (as I've mentioned before) the Iranian "navy" had a blue water destroyer which prowled the straits, attacking unarmed tankers. After he'd killed a bunch of civilians, the captain would say (in the clear) "have a nice day" and sail away. Well, when the time came to take on the Iranian "navy" we dropped a laser guided bomb down his smokestack, which blew the bottom out of that tub. No, YOU have a nice day, arsewipe! There's more where that came from, if needs be.
 
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Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Old Pio said:
During the "tanker war" (as I've mentioned before) the Iranian "navy" had a blue water destroyer which prowled the straits, attacking unarmed tankers. After he'd killed a bunch of civilians, the captain would say (in the clear) "have a nice day" and sail away. Well, when the time came to take on the Iranian "navy" we dropped a laser guided bomb down his smokestack, which blew the bottom out of that tub. No, YOU have a nice day, arsewipe! There's more where that came from, if needs be.
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Was that the 1988 "one day war"?
 
Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Kepler said:
Was that the 1988 "one day war"?
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Yeah. That's about how long the Iranian "navy" is good for.

As the world's greatest blue water Navy, the United States simply cannot and will not permit any country to close an international waterway. And any country attempting to do so, will face an immediate and overpowering response from us. There used to be a dictator in Libya who established a "line of death" in the Gulf of Sidra. IIRC it was 200 miles off shore, not the 12 mile internationally recognized limit. We had a president from Georgia who decided against confronting that former dictator and cancelled maneuvers already scheduled for the Gulf. The subsequent US president sent the navy into the gulf to challenge that former Libyan dictator. Presently the sky was filled with F14 Tomcats, and the dictator's planes were hitting the deck (hard) in alarming numbers. Thus ended the "Line of Death."

In the event the Iranians are serious, what would likely transpire is an attack on a US vessel followed by a massive "shock and awe" type pre-emptive response that would target Iranian vessels, shore facilities and possibly even nuclear assets. We suffered some damage and casualties in '88 and we won't want that to happen again. It wouldn't be pretty. And the Iranian "navy" would rue the day they were born. I would imagine the scenario for such an offensive has already been war gamed and is ready to implement whenever we need it.

Remember what Bart Mancuso, capatain of the hunter killer submarine Dallas says in "Hunt for Red October." "If he so much as twitches, I'll blow him to h*ll." We've got lots of Bart Mancusos in real life. One asset we have now that we didn't have then is the modified Trident boat that carries SEALS and over 150 Tomahawk cruise missiles. Plus, they are equipped to fire Harpoon anti-ship missiles through their torpedo tubes. One of those boats could shower Iranian shore facilities with with thousand pound warheads and pin point accuracy. And they'd never know what hit them.
 
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Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Kepler said:
Now would also be a good time for Russia and China and the Arab League to all tell Iran, "we don't have your back."
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Isn't that sort of necessary to even have the oil embargo discussions that brought up this idle threat? Oil's fungible, after all.
 
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