Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

There are some govt programs that have the potential to pay for themselves or largely so. Education increases peoples productivity, salary income and therefore taxes paid. Without education...we'd be thrown back to the stone ages. Could the private sector conduct eduction? Yes, but unlikely little more than the cherry picking it does today...it has no interest in educating the less affluent half of the population.

Some govt programs have no potential to pay for themselves. Indeed we could shave billions off the military budget and it would only help the country's bottom line.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

There are some govt programs that have the potential to pay for themselves or largely so. Education increases peoples productivity, salary income and therefore taxes paid. Without education...we'd be thrown back to the stone ages. Could the private sector conduct eduction? Yes, but unlikely little more than the cherry picking it does today...it has no interest in educating the less affluent half of the population.

Some govt programs have no potential to pay for themselves. Indeed we could shave billions off the military budget and it would only help the country's bottom line.

Google "endowment"

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Just about everything is "paid for by someone else." That's how the economy works.

Thanks for pointing that out as if I didn't know that already, you flaming twat drip.

There's obviously a massive difference between "someone else" paying for goods and services that directly benefit him/her and that same "someone else" being forced to surrender more money in taxes to pay for goods and services that do NOT directly benefit him/her (think about how you feel regarding the wall street bailouts - now imagine that a lot of people feel the exact same way about paying for other people's childcare and healthcare).

Lastly, I don't understand why Kepler advocates "free senior care". Those over 65 already get SS and Medicare, and worst of all, those are paid for via a regressive tax system that forcibly extracts money from people who by and large are far less well-off as defined by net worth, which is the best measure of one's wealth (definitely preferable to income). If these people need to be taken care of, liquidate their assets first. That's the whole point of saving and investing over one's career in the first place. Has individual responsibility gone completely extinct in this country? Has the time come where we should all take stupid risks and when things don't turn out so well, demand that the more responsible among us hand over their hard-earned money to bail us out of messes largely of our own making?

 

[joecct]

Folks are a bit touchy when it comes to items they believe are specifically spelled out in the Constitution's Bill of Rights.

See the "Fire in a crowded theater" argument.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Thanks for pointing that out as if I didn't know that already, you flaming twat drip.

There's obviously a massive difference between "someone else" paying for goods and services that directly benefit him/her and that same "someone else" being forced to surrender more money in taxes to pay for goods and services that do NOT directly benefit him/her (think about how you feel regarding the wall street bailouts - now imagine that a lot of people feel the exact same way about paying for other people's childcare and healthcare).

It is a narrow-minded person who looks at paying for health care, child care or education as though it is a burden. Given an education, a person is able to get a better job and therefore pay more in taxes. Bill Gates did not make his money in a vacuum...he made it because he surrounded himself with really bright, educated and creative people and was able to harness that creativity into products people wanted. I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that some of the people at Redmond may have used a few bucks from the government to go to school. Now they're paying in taxes way, way more than they ever borrowed. Sounds like a good investment to me. Likewise health and child care. A person who can go to work not worrying about little Tommy and Janie is going to be a lot more productive. And do I really need to point out that a healthy person is going to be more productive than a sick one? Those are all solid investments.

People need to stop thinking with a narrow mind and think more broadly about the benefits to society - and ultimately to them - of these decisions. It might help to think of education, health care and child care as an investment - one that offers a pretty high rate of return.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

People need to stop thinking with a narrow mind and think more broadly about the benefits to society - and ultimately to them - of these decisions. It might help to think of education, health care and child care as an investment - one that offers a pretty high rate of return.

People overlook this concept constantly.

Take beautifying cities. Your local city spends money making things 'nicer', which includes new parks, libraries, cleaning up graffiti...and even accents like new stylistic streetlights. Its easy to say...what a waste of money. But as a result, people like it more and move there. Sure in the long term this attracts business due to an improved workforce. Yet even more directly property values go up...and increases in property taxes pay for much of these improvements.

Some cities just need to move upscale to increase quality of life in order to drive up its local tax revenue. The key is to understand which programs help pay for themselves and which don't.

In the end, I can see the position that we don't want to go crazy having Chicago compete with Milwaukee and both cities spend away. But on education competing with other countries, we aren't competing with ourselves but investing in our broader US economy.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Likewise health and child care. A person who can go to work not worrying about little Tommy and Janie is going to be a lot more productive. And do I really need to point out that a healthy person is going to be more productive than a sick one? Those are all solid investments.

Wow - who knew? Since healthcare is such a good "investment" and we're plowing 16% of our GDP into this great investment, we must be rolling in the dough, right? Right?

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Wow - who knew? Since healthcare is such a good "investment" and we're plowing 16% of our GDP into this great investment, we must be rolling in the dough, right? Right?

Yes, because all investments pay off. The stock market only goes up.

You have to invest in health care, education and child care wisely. You can't just throw money at it and hope it all works out. If we're going to invest in education, then we limit what subjects we're going to cover. Engineering, yes. Art History, no. Same with health insurance. MRI's for people with brain tumors (), yes. A $40M bonus for the CEO of an insurance company, no.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Yes, because all investments pay off. The stock market only goes up.

You have to invest in health care, education and child care wisely. You can't just throw money at it and hope it all works out. If we're going to invest in education, then we limit what subjects we're going to cover. Engineering, yes. Art History, no. Same with health insurance. MRI's for people with brain tumors (), yes. A $40M bonus for the CEO of an insurance company, no.

Ah, it's one of those investments that doesn't pay off. Gotcha.

If this is your criteria, then how could health care for retirees ever pass your "wisely" test? If we "invest" $100k per retiree to extend their lives by 5 years, how would we recoup the principal, much less any interest?

Providing top-notch health care for everyone is certainly a very nice, genteel, and civilized thing to do. But let's not kid ourselves - past ~50-55 years old, it's not an investment in any sense of the word.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Ah, it's one of those investments that doesn't pay off. Gotcha.

Wow. I say one thing and you repost it meaning something entirely different. Very impressive. I didn't say that the investment would not pay off. I said you couldn't just throw money at the problem and everything would just magically work out. That's what we are doing with health "insurance" currently, hence why the 16% of GDP you cite hasn't gotten us rolling in dough.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

It is a narrow-minded person who looks at paying for health care, child care or education as though it is a burden. Given an education, a person is able to get a better job and therefore pay more in taxes. Bill Gates did not make his money in a vacuum...he made it because he surrounded himself with really bright, educated and creative people and was able to harness that creativity into products people wanted. I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that some of the people at Redmond may have used a few bucks from the government to go to school. Now they're paying in taxes way, way more than they ever borrowed. Sounds like a good investment to me. Likewise health and child care. A person who can go to work not worrying about little Tommy and Janie is going to be a lot more productive. And do I really need to point out that a healthy person is going to be more productive than a sick one? Those are all solid investments.

People need to stop thinking with a narrow mind and think more broadly about the benefits to society - and ultimately to them - of these decisions. It might help to think of education, health care and child care as an investment - one that offers a pretty high rate of return.

I've seen more than one reference made to the concept that Bill Gates et al. owe some of their success to the people who were educated via public funds...but I don't see the same extension made to the people who lent him the money to pay those people.

If we're going to say that the 'investment' in public schools is paid back when jobs are created by Bill Gates then are we saying that the 'investments' made by others funded the creation of those jobs?

As an aside, that a not insignificant (and growing) percentage of people in technical fields in the US were not educated on US soil should be an indication of how our investment dollars are being utilized.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

As an aside, that a not insignificant (and growing) percentage of people in technical fields in the US were not educated on US soil should be an indication of how our investment dollars are being utilized.

As a teacher of HS freshman, I'm amazed every year at the lack of knowledge kids come to me with on a yearly basis. It gets worse every year. Then to be constantly told by people who have never taught before, that the way you or I was taught doesn't work anymore. I'd say that what we're doing now isn't working and maybe we should go back. I was also reprimanded for pushing my kids too hard, expecting too much out of them, and failing to many kids who couldn't handle that I actually expected them to do work and learn. I don't really know if that fits in with your comment...but felt the need to vent for a minute.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

As an aside, that a not insignificant (and growing) percentage of people in technical fields in the US were not educated on US soil should be an indication of how our investment dollars are being utilized.

Or the fact that the highest paying technical jobs are located here, with a relatively low level of unemployment, in addition to all the other benefits afforded to people living here. It's a magnet. Of course the best of the best from other countries are coming here. With how easy it is to migrate here now it's no surprise.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

As a teacher of HS freshman, I'm amazed every year at the lack of knowledge kids come to me with on a yearly basis. It gets worse every year. Then to be constantly told by people who have never taught before, that the way you or I was taught doesn't work anymore. I'd say that what we're doing now isn't working and maybe we should go back. I was also reprimanded for pushing my kids too hard, expecting too much out of them, and failing to many kids who couldn't handle that I actually expected them to do work and learn. I don't really know if that fits in with your comment...but felt the need to vent for a minute.

My nephew, who teaches advanced math, has made essentially the same observation. You both deserve our sympathy and respect.

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

As a teacher of HS freshman, I'm amazed every year at the lack of knowledge kids come to me with on a yearly basis. It gets worse every year. Then to be constantly told by people who have never taught before, that the way you or I was taught doesn't work anymore. I'd say that what we're doing now isn't working and maybe we should go back. I was also reprimanded for pushing my kids too hard, expecting too much out of them, and failing to many kids who couldn't handle that I actually expected them to do work and learn. I don't really know if that fits in with your comment...but felt the need to vent for a minute.

What do you do when you have a kid who shows up that has his thit together and gets it?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

If parents want subsidized childcare, they can give up their child tax credit to pay for it. Plus the government can assess user fees for that program if it's created rather than billing the rest of us for it via higher tax rates.

Also, I agree with Lynahfan - subsidizing anything for retirees is just plain stupid on an ROI basis - but of course it won't stop anytime soon because AARP is one of the most powerful organizations in the country. We would get far more bang for our buck by subsidizing healthcare and short-term disability for people in the labor pool + kids (so that they reach adulthood healthy). At the back end, rather than dumping piles of money into the sinkhole that is pointless extension of life with costly care, we could spend a small fraction of that by offering hospice care / pain management instead.

Education is a very difficult problem to solve with money, since everybody has a different idea of where the money should go and what should be prioritized. Often times we see things like new schools or additions (such as auditoriums) being constructed at great cost, while we don't see money going to such essentials as good textbooks or recruiting highly qualified teachers. Plus the Keplers of the world would argue that art and the like have very high value and should be encouraged - but in the practical sense (economically speaking), clearly our investment needs to be oriented more toward math and science, as those things ultimately fuel knowledge / skills in an ever more high-tech economy. My suggestion is that perhaps wealthy donors can put their names on art programs while tax dollars can be spent on the more practical side of things (raising our society's general education level and strengthening our math / science abilities).

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

Or the fact that the highest paying technical jobs are located here, with a relatively low level of unemployment, in addition to all the other benefits afforded to people living here. It's a magnet. Of course the best of the best from other countries are coming here. With how easy it is to migrate here now it's no surprise.

Interesting perspective. As some of you probably know, I'm living over in Europe because my wife is a physicist at CERN after doing grad school in the UK. Pretty much to a man/woman, my wife's international classmates and colleagues would ALL like to work in the US (at least for a little while), because the US is still seen as the most innovative country and the country that does the best job of educating and mentoring young scientists. However, they consistently lament(ed) how difficult it is now to land positions in the US.

This makes sense, though - if every single scientist in the world wants to work in the US, then the US market will be flooded with foreigners even if they only let 1% of them in, so from "your" side, it must seem like it is easy to move to the US. From outside, though, having only a 1% chance of getting a job there is awfully frustrating.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

So, when will your wife create one of those dreaded tiny black holes that will kill us all?

 

[gojackets]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

What do you do when you have a kid who shows up that has his thit together and gets it?

Celebrate and then try to find ways to challenge them. Ex...was giving a student hw out of a phsyics book last year instead of the physical science book

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XXII: Occupy the White House

So, when will your wife create one of those dreaded tiny black holes that will kill us all?

She's not on the Black Hole Armaggedon project - she's on the "No Really, It's Faster Than Light" project.