Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

[St. Clown]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

So I keep hearing on the news, "...debating covert aid to the rebels..." So my question to this: How covert is it really if it's being publicly debated?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

So I keep hearing on the news, "...debating covert aid to the rebels..." So my question to this: How covert is it really if it's being publicly debated?

I heard they decided to authorize covert aid to the rebels.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I heard they decided to authorize covert aid to the rebels.

That's fine and all, but it really wasn't my point. How is it covert if it's being announced through the news? I mean, we don't say which groups get which weapons, as a standard matter of war.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

That's fine and all, but it really wasn't my point. How is it covert if it's being announced through the news? I mean, we don't say which groups get which weapons, as a standard matter of war.

Ya got it. Was just following up on your irony.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Reagan bypassed Congress at least 3 times:

1982 Lebanon
1983 Grenada
1986 Libya

GHWB bypassed Congress twice

1989 Panama
1990 Desert Shield
(though he did get authorization for the big enchilada in 1991)

Clinton was all over the map, requesting and receiving support for some operations, bypassing Congress on other operations, and requesting but not receiving Congressional approval on still others.

Only the fringe-st of the Libertarians would argue against the executive power to deploy rapidly, per War Powers. The question for Obama is: will this be a quick in-and-out? He says yes. He also says that victory cannot be achieved without Gaddafi being removed from power. These statements don't jibe. Which will it be?

False comparisons do not a policy justify. We should all live so long that this dithering, "intellectual" nabob is in the same league with Ronnie the Popular. Actually, BHO is the answer to the question: "What would a Stevenson administration have looked like?"

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Obama Derangement Syndrome really runs deep.

I'm surprised nobody's ginned up "grounds for impeachment" yet. Something to look forward to in the election year I guess.

It depends on whether Dennis Kuchinich counts. He's one of yours, you know.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

False comparisons do not a policy justify.

I'm sure it made sense to you when you typed it, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Precedent doesn't justify it. U.S. law justifies it.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I'm sure it made sense to you when you typed it, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Precedent doesn't justify it. U.S. law justifies it.

Maybe, maybe not. Your comparisons of previous "similar" occurrances doesn't make BHO's ill thought out intervention in Libya right. I support ending the Gaddafi regime (35 years ago), but that would require "targeting" him wouldn't it? And our fearless leader says he won't do that. I believe in a strong executive in these cases. However, the fact remains BHO didn't seek congressional authorization, and Bush did, twice. What would candidate Obama had said if President Bush had made that speech Monday night? In favor of the policy, right?

You're undoubtedly right, there's a huge difference between being a candidate and being president. Perhaps "the smartest guy in the room" should have consulted with some adults before throwing red meat to Code Pink and the rest of the anti-American amen chorus, including that delusional cow Cindy Sheehan, when he was a candidate. Unless it's your view that he can just say anything he wants to, because, after all he makes people's legs tingle. In your mind, evidently, all he's guilty of here is a faux pas, like using his knife to eat the peas.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I was just curious b/c I don't think those operations are particularly similar, except in one minimal sense: they're occasions of deploying military forces in an actual or imminent combat situation.

I don't think we *want* a Presidency that can't act decisively. But an extended operation should be approved by Congress. Obviously, that leaves more room for maneuver than anyone would like. Fortunately for us armchair commentators, I don't think it's going to be resolved decisively any time soon.

Obama has clearly tried to finesse this thing, arguing that the intervention in Libya is closer to one of those really small operations on that list than to an operation like Desert Storm.

Based on what little I know of the situation on the ground, the success of the humanitarian mission is entirely dependent on NATO's continued presence. Remove NATO, and Gaddafi can retake whatever he lost. And lay waste to those who aided and abetted the rebels.

Moreover, to end the current stalemate is going to require more than the limited air campaign we've seen. If the solution is to give the rebels better arms - yikes. That looks like a recipe for a protracted civil war. I foresee lots and lots of dead Libyans. Ain't nothing humanitarian about that. You can make a good humanitarian case for just getting it over quickly. But do we have the stomach for it? And if we don't, what was the big idea of declaring that Gaddafi must be ousted?

If you're looking for someone to defend Obama against any criticism, you've got the wrong guy. You want MSNBC Ed.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Based on what little I know of the situation on the ground, the success of the humanitarian mission is entirely dependent on NATO's continued presence. Remove NATO, and Gaddafi can retake whatever he lost. And lay waste to those who aided and abetted the rebels.

Moreover, to end the current stalemate is going to require more than the limited air campaign we've seen. If the solution is to give the rebels better arms - yikes. That looks like a recipe for a protracted civil war. I foresee lots and lots of dead Libyans. Ain't nothing humanitarian about that. You can make a good humanitarian case for just getting it over quickly. But do we have the stomach for it? And if we don't, what was the big idea of declaring that Gaddafi must be ousted?
.

Pretty much the way I see it also. Gaddafi isn't going to go away easily. The rebels have no organization, lots of heart maybe but no strategy and they'll get crushed without some major fire power behind them.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Pretty much the way I see it also. Gaddafi isn't going to go away easily. The rebels have no organization, lots of heart maybe but no strategy and they'll get crushed without some major fire power behind them.

They do have defections from the officer corps, but without some sort of command and control infrastructure it's hard to see how they disseminate any kind of strategic vision. OTOH, that's the same problem rebellions have always faced, and sometimes they win.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

False comparisons do not a policy justify. We should all live so long that this dithering, "intellectual" nabob is in the same league with Ronnie the Popular. Actually, BHO is the answer to the question: "What would a Stevenson administration have looked like?"

It's funny how the haters just can't get past this. Ever since Reagan, appearing even remotely intelligent has become a third rail for the right. This despite the fairly obvious observation that Reagan himself had to be at least somewhat intelligent to manage to convey fairly complicated ideas in a simplistic, aw shucks manner. The identity politics of the Republicans is astounding -- it plays off class and regional resentment to the exclusion of any consideration of content. They're actually very French, where the country mouse can always get points by thumbing his nose at the city mouse.

Maybe if the GOP spent less time dressing up their candidates to look like they just fell off the turnip truck and more on real policy they wouldn't have been such an epic fail for thirty years.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

They do have defections from the officer corps, but without some sort of command and control infrastructure it's hard to see how they disseminate any kind of strategic vision. OTOH, that's the same problem rebellions have always faced, and sometimes they win.

I'm surprised their haven't more defections, especially once the no fly went into affect. You'd think some of the smarter higher ups would see the writing on the wall and want to get away from Gaddafi

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I'm surprised their haven't more defections, especially once the no fly went into affect. You'd think some of the smarter higher ups would see the writing on the wall and want to get away from Gaddafi

Age old problem of reprisal against family, I'll bet.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

Age old problem of reprisal against family, I'll bet.

That, and the fact that at least in some cases they've probably deeply involved in some of the bad stuff Gadhafi's done over the years, so they may face legal actions once they leave Libya or Libya falls.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

I was told there would be no <del>math</del> geography.

"The bottom line is I wish the president would have told us, talked to Congress about what is the plan. Is there a plan? Is the mission to take Gadhafi out?" Mr. Marino asked.... "Where does it stop?" he said. "Do we go into Africa next?"

Rep. Tom Marino (R-PA), a freshman congressman who serves on the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

That, and the fact that at least in some cases they've probably deeply involved in some of the bad stuff Gadhafi's done over the years, so they may face legal actions once they leave Libya or Libya falls.

As they tell you in defensive driving school, "always leave yourself an out."

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

The House Republican spending plan for the remainder of fiscal year 2011 — H.R. 1 — includes many economically counterproductive cuts that will lead to job loss and stunted growth. One of these is a provision rescinding unobligated money from the Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery II, or TIGER II, grant program. The program is designed to deliver competitive grants to states for high-need infrastructure projects.

All but three Republican senators voted for H.R.1 when it was before the Senate, and those three only voted no because they wanted even deeper cuts than those included in the bill. But three GOP senators — Sens. Olympia Snowe (R-ME), Susan Collins (R-ME) and Kelly Ayotte (R-NH) — are now taking credit for a grant to rebuild the Memorial Bridge that was provided under the TIGER II program they voted to cut:

COLLINS: “I am delighted by today’s announcement that this critical $20 million will be preserved that will help to rehabilitate a vital link for our states’ businesses and people…I particularly appreciate Secretary LaHood’s working so closely with me to expedite the process to guarantee this funding.”

SNOWE: “Snowe said she is grateful the US DOT fulfilled its commitment to the Memorial Bridge project in a timely fashion, and that completion of the bridge overhaul was not jeopardized by ongoing budget debates in Washington, D.C.”

AYOTTE: “Having been called ‘one of the worst bridges in America,’ I am pleased that paperwork issues have been resolved allowing this project to move forward. New Hampshire and Maine have already made a serious commitment to replacing Memorial Bridge, and I am glad that DOT followed through on its commitment.“

After having voted to rescind any funding left for this program, the three New England Republicans lobbied the Department of Transportation to release the funding quickly before the recissions could take place. When H.R. 1 was before the Senate, Transportation Secretary Ray Lahood warned people before the vote that approving those could put projects in peril. “We just want to make sure everybody understands that,” LaHood said.

"Release the funds needed before my No vote takes effect!"

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

It's funny how the haters just can't get past this. Ever since Reagan, appearing even remotely intelligent has become a third rail for the right. This despite the fairly obvious observation that Reagan himself had to be at least somewhat intelligent to manage to convey fairly complicated ideas in a simplistic, aw shucks manner. The identity politics of the Republicans is astounding -- it plays off class and regional resentment to the exclusion of any consideration of content. They're actually very French, where the country mouse can always get points by thumbing his nose at the city mouse.

Maybe if the GOP spent less time dressing up their candidates to look like they just fell off the turnip truck and more on real policy they wouldn't have been such an epic fail for thirty years.

Republican identity politics?! This from someone who spends every waking moment defending a party that had representatives of the National Welfare Rights Organization speak at more than one national convention. Republican identity politics?! The central orgnizing principle of the modern Democratic party is identity politics. Recall that panderfest at the Apollo Theatre featuring Al Gore and Bill Bradly, hosted by. . . .Al Sharpton. Now there's a guy in the proud tradition of FDR and JFK. Republican identiy politics?! Maxine the execrable described the riots at Florence and Normandy as a "rebellion," and made noises about "freedom fighters," like the psychopaths who dragged that white guy from his truck and smashed his head with a chunk of concrete. "Class resentment?" The Democrats only policy suggestion for dealing with fiscal matters is "tax the rich" and "increase the bennies for the ones who won't work." More government all the time, and the answer to every question.

And you should exercise that great compassion libs are always patting themselves on the back about to consider that yes, libs think they're smarter than anyone else. At least smarter than anyone who has the temerity to disagree with them. Two exceptions: Buckley and Nixon. Reagan "appearing even remotely intelligent" is still pretty much par for libs. Condescension is not an argument, but for you guys, it IS a way of life. You never got him and never will. Pat Brown: "I want Reagan." Jimmy Carter: "I want Reagan." Wishes granted. Please, God, give us more dumbells like Ronald Wilson Reagan and fewer intellectuals like the newkuler engineer Jimmy Carter.

Each day that passes reveals the truth of Barack Hussein Obama, he's an empty suit. A diffident poseur, playing at president. And, as it turns out, apparantly a guy who had an unrepentant 60's radical write at least one of his books for him (which tends to undercut that "smartest guy in the room" bull, doesn't it)? A guy who got his foreign politcy experience at I-Hop (credit Pat Buchanan). The second coming of Jimmy Carter. A president on some level who's ashamed of the country he leads. A president whose ultimate goal is to "put us in our place" (hence the bowing and groveling) And if he has to vacate previous, ignorant childish statements about the use of America's power to influence the outcome of events, then we just shouldn't pay any attention to that man behind the curtain.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama XX: Maybe We'll Even Talk About Obama

the tired old thing about Reagan being stupid is easily put to rest by reading his writings.

this was a liberal talking point from the early 80's

no one (well, ok, maybe a couple of the homers from the 1800's) gets to be president and is stupid.