Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If we're playing that game, why has the left gone silent now on the debt, when they were all over it during Bush's time in office?

Hey, quit bringing facts into this.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

edit : Why bring up the deficit now?


First, let me say I would have voted to go into Afghanistan and would have voted to not go into Iraq. Right or wrong, my belief would have been we'd be out of Afghanistan sooner if that was all we went to do and we focused our troops on that conflict. While many mid-east countries would not like it, we'd have had far greater support from the rest of the world for our effort in Afghanistan and US deaths would have been easier to justify.

Second, the cost of the war we chose to fight (Afgh and Iraq) is enormous. BUT, it can stop. That spending can be reduced dramatically if and when we ever come up with an exit plan. That is quite different than spending that never stops and in fact increases over time.

Third, I'd like to think we had a reason to go to Afghanistan and a chance to achieve our goal. While we didn't find Osama, we have put a significant hurtin' on teh Taliban.

That is in stark contrast to throwing money at the problems we have in this country as we try to whitewash our problems...I'd liken that effort to the Iraq war: Tons of spending, no clear mission, no definition of success, no likelihood of achieving those murky goals and a process of weakening the country as we chase the illusion.

So, at least we could stop spending money in Afghanistan and Iraq; growing government, government agencies, entitlement programs etc never comes off the book...if anything, they grow.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

. Obama's not only kicked spending into hyperdrive, he's pursuing a course of action which is going to send revenue through the floor, which will only increase the rate of borrowing.

That spending and the borrowing to pay for it has nothing to do with the economy its only deregulation thats screwed the whole thing up.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Breaking with what you said to tangent from what I just said... one of the few things fiscal conservatives did agree with Bush on were the tax cuts - cuts which ultimately led to an increase in government revenues. Unfortunately, ramped up spending overshot those increased revenues by a significant margin. Obama's not only kicked spending into hyperdrive, he's pursuing a course of action which is going to send revenue through the floor, which will only increase the rate of borrowing.

You can always count on Red Cloud to bring up ridiculous, long disproven GOP talking points. Exhibit 1 today: GOP tax cuts for the rich pay for themselves! Too funny.

On point, check out this interview with The Boner, would be speaker of the house. Fall all you balanced budget junkies, this kinda doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies, does it?

http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0810/Boehner_punts_on_paying_for_tax_cuts.html?showall

And notice, unlike The Cloud, he won't say that tax cuts pay for themselves.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If we're playing that game, why has the left gone silent now on the debt, when they were all over it during Bush's time in office?

Maybe because they understand that in times of economic crisis, near Depresssion level crisis, the last thing to be worrying about at the moment is spending money.

First you get the economy rolling again. Then you worry about deficits.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Just watched Obama's appearance on the View. Thought he was pretty impressive on there..especially in response to Elisabeths questions.

I'm just going to say it. President's should not be hitting talk shows period. It lowers the office. How the hell do you meet world leaders and attempt to have serious dialogue about serious issues after pulling stunts like this?

The View is a vapid show filled with 4-5 brain dead moron's.

of course, Obama can't handle criticism so this may be one of his few remaining forums where his policies will not be challenged in a way that he cannot handle.

I'd love just once for Obama to sit down with Paul Ryan and see how that debate goes...

"uh, uh, redistributive powers...uh, uh, fairness, uh, uh, Bush, Global Warming, uh, uh Engel, uh, the constitution is a charter of negative liberties, uh, uh, Jefferson was really a socialist, uh, the rich, the rich"

Once he's finished destroying our economy, circumventing or outright ignoring/burning the constitution , and entitling 10's of millions more people, it may take 25-50 years to undo the damage, and that's optimistic really.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

It probably isn't. But as I posted here earlier, perhaps in response to one of your posts, for every dollar spent on unemployment benefits, it returns about a $1.90-something in GDP growth. People who are unemployed need to spend that money, and spend it now.

And who doesn't like a 100% return on their money?

Likewise, aid to states mean they won't have to lay off their workers, teachers, fire and police to balance their budgets. Fewer people out of work, fewer collecting unemployment, more spending money on rent, groceries, getting their cars fixed, you know, the stuff that runs our economy.

Where do you get the stats for the first point?

as to your last point you cannot count not laying off workers, teachers, fire and police as more money coming in. If you don't lay them off you have the status quo. If you HIRE more people then you have more money coming in.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

How have states wasted theirs? Perhaps you don't understand, but unlike the federal government, states, at least most of them, are required to have balanced budgets. When tax revenues fall through the bottom, as they have, they're forced to make drastic cutbacks in spending, which only exacerbates the revenue shortfalls.

Really? So California and Illinois are required to have balanced budgets?

Are you just making all of this up as you go?

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

So why this sudden need to quit spending now? Why not ten years ago? 8? I didn't see you guys on here then sayiing the utmost pressing need of government was to cut spending. None of you were whining and complaining while Bush was running up the largest deficits in history

But suddenly, now that a Democrat is president, the one thing we have to do is cut spending, and drastically, and right now, if not yesterday. Thereby insuring that his presidency will be an utter failure, and republicans can get back into office. And get back to wasting trillions on wars and other crap that you wingnuts love.

It's the Repub modus operandi. Run up huge deficits, govern incompetently, make such a royal clusterf^&k of everything that it will take years and lots of money to fix, and then biitch and cry about how much money the Democrats are spending to fix it and how they haven't gotten it all done yesterday.

good grief. I'm not a Bush fan but I'll say this...and it's a fact based on the deficit numbers. Bush would have had to have been president for something like 20 consecutive years to reach Obama's deficit numbers, and that's IF he'd have spent lavishly ad infinitum...

put's O in perspective doesn't it?

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Where do you get the stats for the first point?

as to your last point you cannot count not laying off workers, teachers, fire and police as more money coming in. If you don't lay them off you have the status quo. If you HIRE more people then you have more money coming in.

1. Can't recall, it may have been CBO, miht have been somewhere else. if you're that curious, I'm sure you can find it.

2. Never said it meant more money coming in. But surely even you can admit that status quo is a lot better than the situation you'll have if those people do get laid off.

Really? So California and Illinois are required to have balanced budgets?

Are you just making all of this up as you go?

What part of 'most' don't you understand.

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/BudgetTax/StateBalancedBudgetRequirements/tabid/12660/Default.aspx

Nature of state balanced-budget requirements All the states except Vermont have a legal requirement of a balanced budget. Some are constitutional, some are statutory, and some have been derived by judicial decision from constitutional provisions about state indebtedness that do not, on their face, call for a balanced budget. The General Accounting Office has commented that "some balanced budget requirements are based on interpretations of state constitutions and statutes rather than on an explicit statement that the state must have a balanced budget."

The requirements vary in stringency from state to state. In some states the requirement is that the introduced budget be balanced, or that the enacted budget be balanced. In other states policymakers are required to ensure that expenditures in a fiscal year stay within the cash available for that fiscal year. Other states may carry unavoidable deficits into the next fiscal year for resolution.

There are three general kinds of state balanced budget requirements:

The governor's proposed budget must be balanced (43 states and Puerto Rico).
The budget the legislature passes must be balanced (39 states and Puerto Rico).
The budget must be balanced at the end of a fiscal year or biennium, so that no deficit can be carried forward (37 states and Puerto Rico).

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

People have been saying this for years. Either you haven't listened or they were being drowned out.

Seriously revisionist history there. We've been through this many times. The Republicans held office and Bush easily reelected in 2004. Liberals were solidly against Bush then...and by then many independents had defected. conservatives pushed him through. And all the way up until 2005, Bush's approval was at or over 40. Again, no liberals in that number. Even as the rest of the country had long since abandoned him and his approval plummetted to 29% driven by huge unneccessary spending, Iraq and an economic disaster...a healthy majority of conservatives still supported him.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/113083/conservative-republicans-still-widely-support-bush.aspx

If we're playing that game, why has the left gone silent now on the debt, when they were all over it during Bush's time in office?

Simple. By many measures, the worst recession since the Great Depression...which was ushered in under Bush and the GOP. If you add a stop to govt spending to the precious little spending coming from business and private sources...the economy could sieze up.

But the big question is not why are we careful to keep money flowing through the economy now...but why did we deficit spend under the GOP when the economy didn't need it?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

While I may not have been on USCHO at the time, I was definitely harping on the spending. And I know plenty of people who were conservative that were saying the same thing. Anecdotal, I know, but it's the best I can offer.

 

[Jason A]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

The View is a vapid show filled with 4-5 brain dead moron's.

Perhaps, but the United States of America has become a vapid country, hasn't it? So it strikes me as fitting and not at all inappropriate that he'd go on the show.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

While I may not have been on USCHO at the time, I was definitely harping on the spending. And I know plenty of people who were conservative that were saying the same thing. Anecdotal, I know, but it's the best I can offer.

I was here...and they weren't. The first part of the Dubya presidency (it wasnt until the last 1.5 years that they flipped...there was lots of 29%ers around here for a while) the "conservatives" around here basically called you a traitor if you thought differently than the GOP on anything. (the Iraq War threads would get awesome whenever Fox would say they might have found WMDs and have it debunked...you are talking 12 pages in an hour!) If you questioned the Wars you hated the troops, if you brought up the cost you were an islamofascist, if you talked about how he abused his power and consolidated powers he wasnt supposed to have you were a pinko...etc. Basically it was like having a dozen Hannity's around here. I was called a commie pinko islamofacist a few times myself...I dont know how that works per se but then again Ole Pio did say I was a Klan sympathizer a couple months back there was not one con on here...NOT ONE that was calling Bush out for his crap until his presidency was nearly over.

The Liberals on here spent all day calling Bush a Fascist and a coke head with no brains fighting wars to avenge his daddy and make oil barons rich but seem to ignore that Obama has not given back any of the power Bush had (wire taps, email scans...etc) or that he has not done anything to end either war. Not to mention he has basically handed the insurance companies millions/billions of dollars thanks to his BS bill, paid off Wall Street with our money and has screwed over Arizona on immigration.

It is the same game with different players. What is funny is if you go back to threads from 2004-2006 it will be the same guys (Red Cloud may have been on his old name and dtp was the most vocal) arguing with Rover and Todd Patten and it was all the same crap just a different party in power. I think they have their talking points saved in a word file so they can cut an paste

I say we need to find HankWP and Nate91b...at least they had fun! I cant believe I was MIA when Hank got banned

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

1. Can't recall, it may have been CBO, miht have been somewhere else. if you're that curious, I'm sure you can find it.

2. Never said it meant more money coming in. But surely even you can admit that status quo is a lot better than the situation you'll have if those people do get laid off.




What part of 'most' don't you understand.

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/BudgetTax/StateBalancedBudgetRequirements/tabid/12660/Default.aspx

If you don't recall the numbers and where you got them it sortof invalidates that argument.

For the states I'm not going to advocate giving them money to help them out as the Feds are in over there heads right now and Obama just keeps making it worse. It sucks for the people who get laid off but they should look to who they've been voting for if they want real answers.

also
Ray LaHood in Wisconsin saying basically "you're going to get this train to madison whether you want it or not"

now, that's 800Million dollars that will be wasted on a train no-one, NO-ONE will ride. how does that help anyone anywhere?

it doesn't. but Obama cherishes his high-school/college fantasy world like many college professors do, the world of engels/marx/guevarra, etc. and having authoritarian government control over the people is key to that world.

so we get what we don't want.

the media gives him a pass because they love and enjoy the same books/and ism's.

but really, just like Guevarra who championed the poor, while destabilizing the country, nationalizing everything, telling everyone essentially he knows how to live life better than they, and all the while spending money lavishly on himself, riding limos, and living in a mansion.

sounds like our current regime. and i bring up the media because I don't expect them to profile Michelle Obama's trip anytime soon, nor Obama's every 3rd week vacation schedule.

much less the job numbers that just came out.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Seriously, you are a one trick pony. There should be a solovsfett Law (like Godwin's Law) that an argument or thread is dead whenever Che is brought up

The predictability is awesome though

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Seriously, you are a one trick pony. There should be a solovsfett Law (like Godwin's Law) that an argument or thread is dead whenever Che is brought up

The predictability is awesome though

I know you don't like it Handy, but I feel it's apropos (I FEEL believe Obama is the american version of Guevarra, sans guns, and his record is bearing this out), and it's my families experience.

so you and I disagree...

...And for the record we do have one nutball in the family that worked for Che Guevarra in Cuba, and still holds onto that unattainable dream. Though the entire rest of the crew wonders why she choose to leave then.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

1. Can't recall, it may have been CBO, miht have been somewhere else. if you're that curious, I'm sure you can find it.

2. Never said it meant more money coming in. But surely even you can admit that status quo is a lot better than the situation you'll have if those people do get laid off.




What part of 'most' don't you understand.

http://www.ncsl.org/IssuesResearch/BudgetTax/StateBalancedBudgetRequirements/tabid/12660/Default.aspx

Just found the stats on Bush vs. Obama deficits.

in 2008 Bush left us with a 400billion dollar deficit. not good.

In 2009 according to the CBO we have/had a 1.75 Trillion dollar deficit. so Obama's deficit is over 4x Bush's.

charting this out through 2019 the CBO says the lowest the deficit will be is 700million in 2012.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=711
List of the states and their budget shortfalls are contained here.

CA's shortfall was over 50% of the budget in FY '10. FY '11 numbers are incomplete, so the number given in the chart is not accurate; according to other sources, it's approaching $30 billion. IL's shortfalls are also comically high - approaching 50% for 3 straight years (FY '10, '11, and '12). Arizona and Nevada both have awful percentages as well. Note: a majority of states are < 20%.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If you don't recall the numbers and where you got them it sortof invalidates that argument.

.

Oh Jesus Christ, eat me.