Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

There's nothing you can do about that. That's 1000% up to the parents.

The thing that gets me is when people act like the only way to give your kids a good education is to send 'em to private school. It's a groan inducing eye-roller.

Are public schools often misguided? At times, absolutely. But they aren't what's stopping kids from succeeding. At worst, they're just not correcting the ones that don't give a crap.

I guess what I meant to convey is that if a parent puts their money where their mouth is and commits to education over other ways to spend money then it stands to reason they are focused on the right priorities. Sure, some folks send their kids to private school just because they can but many families make real sacrifices to put their kids in the best school possible.

That doesn't mean public school can't produce good students, that isn't what I said. But, plenty of people go to private schools with aid from the school, by working at the school etc. Why? Because they believe it is the best educational environment for their kids. Same reason why some move to one district vs. another even if it means a longer commute etc.

It may be less about the school and more about the environment for most of the kids...geniuses and morons probably can go anywhere and produce the same result. For the majority of the kids, put them in a high school where 90+% go to college and they can be pulled by the norm...send them to a school where nobody cares and they can be pulled the other way.

But all in all, I was trying to convey that the combination of committed parents and an environment dedicated to real learning vs. keeping numbers up for federal aid purposes produces results.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

One potential solution from the policy level would be to massively increase the length of the school year - other countries have much longer school years, for example.

But this really shouldn't be all that surprising. Total up all the waking hours kids have in a year, and then compare what percentage of those hours they spend in school. It's not that much, really. Far less than adults spend at work, for example.

I was thinking the same thing. Countries like Japan has more hours or 6 day school week and faster math/science courses at younger age. Plus the pressure of doing well in school in these countries are horrendous. very high suicide rate.

But top scoring country Finland has the lowest school hours so...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8601207.stm

According to the OECD, Finnish children spend the fewest number of hours in the classroom in the developed world.

This reflects another important theme of Finnish education.

Relaxed atmosphere in Finnish school
Children walk around in their socks at Torpparinmäki Comprehensive

Primary and secondary schooling is combined, so the pupils don't have to change schools at age 13. They avoid a potentially disruptive transition from one school to another.

A tactic used in virtually every lesson is the provision of an additional teacher who helps those who struggle in a particular subject. But the pupils are all kept in the same classroom, regardless of their ability in that particular subject.

In South Korea, the school day is long and pupils have a much stricter study regime.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Where the hell have the resident liberals Priceless and Kepler been? These threads have been relatively quiet lately.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I was thinking the same thing. Countries like Japan has more hours or 6 day school week and faster math/science courses at younger age. Plus the pressure of doing well in school in these countries are horrendous. very high suicide rate.

But top scoring country Finland has the lowest school hours so...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8601207.stm

Of course, you can have longer or more school days without adding to the cultural pressure to succeed, too.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but much of our current school calendar is more driven by a need to get to the farm and help with planting and harvest - two issues that don't really affect a great deal of the population anymore.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Of course, you can have longer or more school days without adding to the cultural pressure to succeed, too.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but much of our current school calendar is more driven by a need to get to the farm and help with planting and harvest - two issues that don't really affect a great deal of the population anymore.

I think you're right. That was my understanding of it.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I'll chime in by first saying I love how everyone here proves you wrong; yet you continue to spew your faulty logic.

I've been clamoring for spending to stop ever since I learned about politics. I don't want it to stop being spent on things that matter, like our military. I want it to stop where it counts, like teachers and schools; like welfare and social security that just encourage people to use the system instead of being productive members of society; like giving aid to countries that don't deserve it.

New Jersey got it right by standing up to the idiots. I hope the rest of our country can do the same.

Yes, we know. Wars and corporate handouts are just fine, but keeping a few hundred teachers in their jobs is just money we can't afford to spend.

Dumbass.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Yes, we know. Wars and corporate handouts are just fine, but keeping a few hundred teachers in their jobs is just money we can't afford to spend.

Dumbass.

Maybe if school districts weren't shackled with expensive teachers that aren't pulling their weight for the union contracted price they are paid and could afford to cut one expensive teacher in order to keep 2 of the younger more invigorating teachers this wouldn't be such an issue but teachers unions don't care about the low man on the totem pole, they care about the status quo. Obviously they would like to keep every job they currently have, but they can't handle cut backs to pensions or insurance or wages like the rest of us have had to endure over the last few years. Back in my home town teachers don't pay no premiums for medical insurance and their coverage is better than mine. Hell one of my buddies who has been teaching for 10 years now and was recently laid off, his hourly rate was higher than mine as an engineer of 4 years now. He got a raise every year he taught while I on the other hand in the private sector had to be happy to still have a job through the recession. Bailing out the education system to save a few hundred teacher's jobs just postpones the same problem. The current system is failing and no seems to want to solve the problem. They just want to pass the buck.

I have absolutely no problem with the idea that every government program across the board should have a budgetary cut of 10% including the military and many programs (Education, Energy, Homeland Security, etc) should just disappear at the national level and those responsibilities should be returned to the states.

EDIT: As for corporate handouts, I see no mention of that by Sloe Gin and they are never a good idea, whether its farm subsidies (they mostly end up in the hands of large agro corps), or bail outs of wall street, the banks or GM. The government should never be in the business of propping up losers or trying to pick winners (green energy subsidies). If something is profitable it will find a market and replace current means when feasible.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Hell one of my buddies who has been teaching for 10 years now and was recently laid off, his hourly rate was higher than mine as an engineer of 4 years now.

Ignoring the 6-year experience differential...What type of teacher? Did he have a master's or doctorate? What type of engineer are you? What degrees do you have?

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the problem based on the information given.

If we're talking an elementary music teacher vs. a doctorate-holding chemical engineer, then sure, the situation is absurd even with the 6-year experience differential.

If we're talking about a high school physics teacher with a masters while you're an industrial engineer with a bachelor's, then no, it isn't.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

President Obama debates himself on Afghanistan:
<div><iframe src="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/video/video_2899.html?1281456364" width="465" height="395" noresize="noresize" frameborder="0" border="0" cellspacing="0" scrolling="no" marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" style="border:0px;overflow: hidden;"></iframe></div>

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Fire all the teachers. Send the kids home. We can't compete with China anymore anyway.

Just give up.

I probably just balanced the State and Federal budgets. You can all thank me.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Ignoring the 6-year experience differential...What type of teacher? Did he have a master's or doctorate? What type of engineer are you? What degrees do you have?

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the problem based on the information given.

If we're talking an elementary music teacher vs. a doctorate-holding chemical engineer, then sure, the situation is absurd even with the 6-year experience differential.

If we're talking about a high school physics teacher with a masters while you're an industrial engineer with a bachelor's, then no, it isn't.

Alright let me go for the facts, he is a social studies teacher. I think he has his masters now. When we talked hourly rate I don't think he did yet...after double checking the math (I kinda guessed on the 10 years). He had a 4 year head start on me. I'm an environmental engineer with a BS. He had 7 years in teach in rural Wisconsin, while I'm in the Twin Cities. His hourly rate was about 50 cents and hour more than mine with the experience being 7 vs 3. He may have had his masters in education by then maybe not.

 

[walrus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Maybe if school districts weren't shackled with.

Guidance counselors and Ed Techs.

The school my kid is in has 3 guidance counselors, one asst counselor and 16 ed techs for 350 students. My school had more students, no ed techs and 1 counselor

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Perhaps the most durable myth of the "America is always wrong crowd," and their slightly more sophisticated cousins the "I love America, but. . ." crowd, (and there's always a "but") is that in our opposition to communism (which they found at a minimum unstylish) we "always" aligned ourselves with dictators whose governments were decidedly undemocratic. This same "analysis" is being applied now in Afghanistan and Iraq.

This was an article of faith on the left, repeated endlessly in op-eds, books, utterances on TV and so on. What these folks never did, however, was compare these allegedly dictatorial governments with the totalitarian regimes they replaced or were in conflict with.

In Vietnam the whining about the "corruption" and lack of democracy in South Vietnam was a regular part of their anti-American belly aching. Somehow these comparisons failed to include the North, where "uncle Ho" presided over a fully functioning, democratic state with free elections.

In Korea, these same people had nothing but condemnation for Syngman Rhee, but were utterly silent on Kim pere, who ushered in an era of peace, goodwill, prosperity and democracy for those folks. A tradition improved upon by Kim fils.

Ciang kai Shek didn't meet the high standards these folks demanded of our friends but Mao (the bloodiest butcher in world history) evidently did.

We're seeing the same thing now with Karzai and Al Maliki. Afghanistan had no government, it had a criminal enterprise posing as a government. Anyone who saw the cover of Time last week, showing that 18 year old girl with her nose cut off by her Taliban husband knows everything one needs to know about that bunch. Let's hope before we leave, we add greatly to the body count of those b******s.

The Al Malki government is not perfect by any means but it is replacing a regime that murdered at least 400,000 of its citizens. A regime which had rapists on the payroll to humiliate opponants forced to watch as their wives and daughters were violated.

This willingness to look the other way at the worst kinds of abuse by our enemies but to hold our friends to the highest possible standards has been a central feature of lefty politics my whole life. It's as if these new democracies, rising in countries with zero democratic traditions must immediately become Switzerland or they have no validity.

Of course, the people in Sourth Korea and Tawian would argue otherwise.
The people in Vietnam can't argue, since they're now living in a "workers paradise."

One thing's for sure, communists don't like the idea of people expressing themselves at the ballot box (in a real election). That's why in provincial and village elections, the VC always made sure to liquidate candidates and village elders. This business of voting is highly contagious and people like the idea of being able to chart the course for their country. Islamic totalitarians don't much care for democracy either. Or religious pluralism or the rights of women, etc. etc.

So there are going to be problems in Afghanistan and Iraq as those two nations move forward. But their people will be infinitely better off than they were. A fact which the "America is always wrong" crowd will continue to ignore.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Ignoring the 6-year experience differential...What type of teacher? Did he have a master's or doctorate? What type of engineer are you? What degrees do you have?

Sorry, but I'm not seeing the problem based on the information given.

If we're talking an elementary music teacher vs. a doctorate-holding chemical engineer, then sure, the situation is absurd even with the 6-year experience differential.

If we're talking about a high school physics teacher with a masters while you're an industrial engineer with a bachelor's, then no, it isn't.

Maybe he should have become a teacher instead of an engineer.

and why is that the young low paid teachers are always the good ones, while those that have been there for a while are just going through the motions and pocketing a paycheck?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Maybe he should have become a teacher instead of an engineer.

and why is that the young low paid teachers are always the good ones, while those that have been there for a while are just going through the motions and pocketing a paycheck?

labor union
 
–noun
an organization of wage earners or salaried employees for mutual aid and protection and for dealing collectively with employers; trade union.

Origin:
1865–70

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I was thinking the same thing. Countries like Japan has more hours or 6 day school week and faster math/science courses at younger age. Plus the pressure of doing well in school in these countries are horrendous. very high suicide rate.

But top scoring country Finland has the lowest school hours so...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8601207.stm

America's problems with the maths and sciences is that they are unwilling to fast track those that are talented at the maths and sciences... or more to the point, math itself. Those who fast track in the social sciences will fast track overall... but math students may lag behind in other studies (I hate you English class).

America's education problem is much more structural than it is the teachers. Teachers keep telling people that its a labor of love... well, guess what, you aren't getting paid... and don't act like you will be either. 40-50k a year sounds right and maybe even high.

Want to improve things... 1) make teaching materials cheap. Ever hear of "Dover books"... they're $10-12 a pop on several high level math topics. You know what India uses... cheap standard math texts from the 1940s. Not ever discipline will be like that but many are. The only items one needs in many disciplines is a standard set... English hasn't changed in the last 30 years. History only changes in that sometimes we come across new information, but largely it stays the same. Books shouldn't be a strong cost.

Necessity of computers is still, in reality, limited. The need for it nowadays is word processing which can be done with a very lower powered machine. Internet research is a useful skill to have but can be gained in other contexts... its not mandatory. The only other item which you may need to spend money on in scale would be on the experimental sciences... but even then in high school its nothing more than a prelude to the proper teaching you'll get in college. I think in small doses they are OK but just to reinforce math concepts. Otherwise, the goal should be in teaching pragmatic practices and principles.

There's my education rant. I'm of the opinion that you can teach the world in a set of welded temporary trailers given the right (cheap) texts, a whiteboard, and teaching materials. Computers are still optional in my opinion and that much of instruction is spent filling time. Now, I'm not saying that such a world is ideal. I still prefer the idea of the brick and mortar building... but the problem is structural. We funnel too many dollars into programs and not enough into cheap texts.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Is corporate welfare the same as a state offering tax breaks to companies if they move there, hire people, build buildings, support local vendors, buy houses etc? I have to say that I'd rather my state make 50% of something vs. 100% of nothing plus have to provide services for those with no jobs.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Too much right wing whining about education. In fact, is there anything you people don't cry about? We'll cover that later, but I too don't buy this "America can't compete" argument, nor the "unions are keeping students back" nonsense.

Simply put the big problem with American education compared to other countries is that 1) all US kids are required to be educated (unlike in say China where I seriously doubt all children are being educated, especially in rural areas) and 2) no other country has to educate so many non native speakers as the US.

20 years ago Boston University was tasked with running a nearby city's school system. Their results with students who spent all 12 years in the system were good, but overall the results were about even. Why? Because the system had to educate new arrivals every year who will naturally score lower. Even in an "English only" environment, that's still going to be the case.

So stop whining. Cut education spending and watch other countries move ahead of us. Keep it where it is and we'll be fine. I always ask knuckledraggers whenever they bring up education cuts: How will making it harder for US schoolchildren to get educated help the country compete against the rest of the world?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Is corporate welfare the same as a state offering tax breaks to companies if they move there, hire people, build buildings, support local vendors, buy houses etc? I have to say that I'd rather my state make 50% of something vs. 100% of nothing plus have to provide services for those with no jobs.

apples and oranges, I'm talking about the federal government giving out handouts. That is not the job of the federal government according to the constitution. State governments are free to that if its constitutional in the given state. The whole point of our federal system is to try and keep as much government as close to the people as possible. Limiting the sphere of influence for the national government, leaving most everything to the states and having the states allow smaller government entities to do their thing (cities, townships, etc).

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

I'm still waiting for "big education" to be hauled in front congress. It's a crime against humanity that companies make a profit. But these universities with their giant endowments use them in a sort of dick measuring contest yet the students are crushed by debt. Not once have I seen a university's spending scrutinized under the bright lights of congress.