Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

[unofan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Because there is too much head wind removing the loopholes. probably easier to add a new tax without loopholes.

I like the VAT idea more and more. although I like the national sale tax for simplicity. same with simple flat tax.

You like hidden taxes? Really?

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Bill... you can implement some of ideas of the "Fair Tax" without it being "Fair Tax" its called "National Sales Tax"... just because you define "Fair Tax" in a certain way is really a moot point.

I don't want to get into a discussion of the Fair Tax, but to equate it to a straightforward national sales tax (and I'm not saying you're doing that) is an over-simplification. There's a lot more to it than a simple national sales (consumption) tax. Your comment does make me curious about which ideas of the Fair Tax you might be interested in implementing though.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

The principal consumption tax that has been proposed is the Fair Tax, which is a replacement for the income tax, payroll taxes, corp taxes, etc. It isn't designed to be an additional tax. There may have been some other talk about national sales taxes, but nothing serious that I'm aware of. Likewise, any Flat Tax proposal I've ever heard about would also replace the income tax. If Congress decides to pursue a VAT, there's no way it's going to be proposed as a replacement fro the income tax; it will be additional tax.

Fair Tax is simply a national sales tax.
Flat Tax is simply the current income tax system just without different marginal brackets.

The Flat Tax, by definition, would replace the current system, since it's the same system, just with different numbers.
While a national sales tax, under the Fair Tax banner or otherwise, may be designed to replace the income tax, I don't understand why you think that would actually happen when you admit a VAT would not.

I don't want to get into a discussion of the Fair Tax, but to equate it to a straightforward national sales tax (and I'm not saying you're doing that) is an over-simplification. There's a lot more to it than a simple national sales (consumption) tax. Your comment does make me curious about which ideas of the Fair Tax you might be interested in implementing though.

Uh, the Fair Tax is a straightforward national sales tax. That's one of its selling points, its simplicity. I don't know why you're claiming otherwise.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Fair Tax is simply a national sales tax.
Flat Tax is simply the current income tax system just without different marginal brackets.

The Flat Tax, by definition, would replace the current system, since it's the same system, just with different numbers.
While a national sales tax, under the Fair Tax banner or otherwise, may be designed to replace the income tax, I don't understand why you think that would actually happen when you admit a VAT would not.



Uh, the Fair Tax is a straightforward national sales tax. That's one of its selling points, its simplicity. I don't know why you're claiming otherwise.

Its got 3 parts... national sales tax, "pre-bates"... tax-credits for the poor, elimination of all other tax codes. We slap a label on it and pronounce it God.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Fair Tax is simply a national sales tax.
Flat Tax is simply the current income tax system just without different marginal brackets.

The Flat Tax, by definition, would replace the current system, since it's the same system, just with different numbers.
While a national sales tax, under the Fair Tax banner or otherwise, may be designed to replace the income tax, I don't understand why you think that would actually happen when you admit a VAT would not.



Uh, the Fair Tax is a straightforward national sales tax. That's one of its selling points, its simplicity. I don't know why you're claiming otherwise.

If you would take the time to study and understand it, you would know the answer to that.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Basic structure = progressive marginal tax rates. I have no problem with that, and I bet most people don't either.

So why not start there and then go after the loopholes, deductions, exemptions, whatever you wish to call them?

Or, perhaps to put it another way, how can the (un)Fair Tax or Flat Tax people confidently tell us that their systems won't be subject to the same loopholes/deductions/exemptions/whatever?

See, that's the thing about cutting out loopholes and reductions, nothing's there to stop a future Congress from adding them back into the tax code. When Reagan's taxcuts took effect in 83(?), the top marginal tax rate went from 70% to 25%, but the vast majority of deductions were eliminated in an effort to help streamline the personal income tax laws. Well, here we are some 27 years later, and look at where we stand - TMR = 39.6%, and loophole after loophole has been placed back into the tax code.

So many politicians have a special interest group to curry favor and tax law is an enticing method of doing such a thing? Pandering to the social warfare sorts? Increase the TMR. Going after soccer moms? Put on a tax credit for the ankle biters, and tuition expenses. The list just continues on and on.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

If you would take the time to study and understand it, you would know the answer to that.

Bill... why not just say that you haven't read the book?

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Bill... why not just say that you haven't read the book?

I've read both books.

Fair Tax, Flat Tax, either one would be much better than what we have now.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

You like hidden taxes? Really?

It's not that he likes hidden taxes, he just likes over-burdening the economy.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

Basic structure = progressive marginal tax rates. I have no problem with that, and I bet most people don't either.

So why not start there and then go after the loopholes, deductions, exemptions, whatever you wish to call them?

Or, perhaps to put it another way, how can the (un)Fair Tax or Flat Tax people confidently tell us that their systems won't be subject to the same loopholes/deductions/exemptions/whatever?

Too many people have a vested interest in the current tax system. I like my mortgage interest deduction, and being able to fully load my 401K with pre-tax dollars and taking tax losses on investments. Others may like their dependent deductions, small business incentives, etc. Maintaining the current system of taxing income creates incentives for "loopholes" for political gain under the guise they "stimulate the economy". I don't think you will succeed at trimming around the edges for very long. If you're going to "reform" the tax system, you really need to start from the ground up. Flat tax, fair tax, VAT, etc. all have appeal, and potential downsides. However, the current system cannot support future spending, as demographics change and place more of that burden on a smaller group of taxpayers.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

See, that's the thing about cutting out loopholes and reductions, nothing's there to stop a future Congress from adding them back into the tax code. When Reagan's taxcuts took effect in 83(?), the top marginal tax rate went from 70% to 25%, but the vast majority of deductions were eliminated in an effort to help streamline the personal income tax laws. Well, here we are some 27 years later, and look at where we stand - TMR = 39.6%, and loophole after loophole has been placed back into the tax code.

So what makes people think the flat tax and/or fair tax won't have the same loopholes/deductions added in over time? College tuition, goods from certain politically favored groups, etc. are all ripe for being exempted from the Fair Tax. The Flat Tax likewise is just an income tax, and still ripe for similar deductions.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

So what makes people think the flat tax and/or fair tax won't have the same loopholes/deductions added in over time? College tuition, goods from certain politically favored groups, etc. are all ripe for being exempted from the Fair Tax. The Flat Tax likewise is just an income tax, and still ripe for similar deductions.

Let's just raise the white flag now and admit we're completely *'d when it comes to simplifying the tax code in any significant way. Congress will always make sure its favored donors/supporters are protected/exempted somehow, regardless of the tax. I just wish it wasn't so comically blatant.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

the second they announce a national sales tax you will see people buy all kinds of high ticket stuff in the interim period and then not buy any after. the trough in tax revenue will gag a yak.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

With reported unemployment just under 10%, you gotta love an administration that wants to train foreign workers, with taxpayer dollars.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/integration/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=226500202

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

With reported unemployment just under 10%, you gotta love an administration that wants to train foreign workers, with taxpayer dollars.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/integration/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=226500202

Sweeeeeeeeeeet. It's in IT too. What a shock.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

This sucks.

Obama's fast becoming our generation's Carter. Except replace the earnestness with wasteful spending. Either way, this is inevitably going to lead us to the same thing Carter gave us: a backlash from the Right in the name of "fiscal conservatism" that will inevitably be little more than continued government spending (just in areas more right-friendly) and tax cuts for people who need it the least.

Come to think of it, we got that after Clinton, too, but at least Clinton was a president worth a ****!

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

This sucks.

Obama's fast becoming our generation's Carter. Except replace the earnestness with wasteful spending. Either way, this is inevitably going to lead us to the same thing Carter gave us: a backlash from the Right in the name of "fiscal conservatism" that will inevitably be little more than continued government spending (just in areas more right-friendly) and tax cuts for people who need it the least.

Come to think of it, we got that after Clinton, too, but at least Clinton was a president worth a ****!

It would be nice if for once, the backlash actually resulted in fiscal conservatism and a retraction in the scope, reach and spending of the federal government.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

but at least Clinton was a president worth a ****!

Well, Monica thought so...


I assume that's what you starred out...

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

It would be nice if for once, the backlash actually resulted in fiscal conservatism and a retraction in the scope, reach and spending of the federal government.

But why, when you have power and influence, would you want to give up said power and influence?

Seriously, never has a president done less with as much going for him as he does. He has both houses and he passes a health care reform bill that reforms nothing. Last I checked neither war is close to ending and Afghanistan just keeps growing! None of the destruction of our personal freedoms done by Bush and company have been reversed and despite the fact that even the highest ranking officials in the military came out publicly in support of the repealing of Dont Ask Dont Tell it has yet to be repealed...in fact minus about a weeks worth of news it is largely ignored. Add in the border problems, the financial problems that his solutions did nothing to help and all the other BS...

Now I was a supporter of Obama, but this is downright ridiculous. Even my friends on the left have said they wont support him next election. (it wont matter Minnesota is going Dem like always) He could have done great things, could have made changes that really mattered, but just like everyone else he played the same game despite his assertions he wouldn't. He bowed to the powers that be and let everyone but himself set the agenda because he feared he would get bad press. The Obama of the campaign would have said "Screw that, we will do what we have to and let history judge us" but this Obama is just another spineless Dem.

Such a shame. I am sure Kepler and 5mn will try and spin it to tell us how it was all Bush's fault or we are looking at it wrong but we aren't. There is no excuse for the lack of any real action out of Obama...NONE.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIII: It's all Bush's fault.

But why, when you have power and influence, would you want to give up said power and influence?

Seriously, never has a president done less with as much going for him as he does. He has both houses and he passes a health care reform bill that reforms nothing. Last I checked neither war is close to ending and Afghanistan just keeps growing! None of the destruction of our personal freedoms done by Bush and company have been reversed and despite the fact that even the highest ranking officials in the military came out publicly in support of the repealing of Dont Ask Dont Tell it has yet to be repealed...in fact minus about a weeks worth of news it is largely ignored. Add in the border problems, the financial problems that his solutions did nothing to help and all the other BS...

Now I was a supporter of Obama, but this is downright ridiculous. Even my friends on the left have said they wont support him next election. (it wont matter Minnesota is going Dem like always) He could have done great things, could have made changes that really mattered, but just like everyone else he played the same game despite his assertions he wouldn't. He bowed to the powers that be and let everyone but himself set the agenda because he feared he would get bad press. The Obama of the campaign would have said "Screw that, we will do what we have to and let history judge us" but this Obama is just another spineless Dem.

Such a shame. I am sure Kepler and 5mn will try and spin it to tell us how it was all Bush's fault or we are looking at it wrong but we aren't. There is no excuse for the lack of any real action out of Obama...NONE.

While I am a conservative so I didn't really want him to do a lot of the things you thought he'd do, you are completely correct. He and his party are in control of everything. They can do anything they want within the law and they have chosen not to and to blame Bush and the republicans for why stuff isn't working now.