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Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

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Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

BTW, does this mean that every time the GOP lowers the top marginal rate that's class warfare?

Yes, but not in the way you think. GW dropped us poor people's taxes by a third, even without the extra child credits. The rich got a relative pittance discounted, percentage-wise.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Yes, but not in the way you think. GW dropped us poor people's taxes by a third, even without the extra child credits. The rich got a relative pittance discounted, percentage-wise.

Yeah, the rich always lose. It's a curse.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Yeah, the rich always lose. It's a curse.

I am willing to trade. They can pay what I paid in taxes, and I'll bear the burden of paying their share of the taxes.

But we have to trade incomes, too.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

I am willing to trade. They can pay what I paid in taxes, and I'll bear the burden of paying their share of the taxes.

But we have to trade incomes, too.

Good God, man, haven't you heard they'll put you in the Rich White Male Death Camps? :eek: It's the Socialism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Look at how they are suffering under Obama. My god, on West Palm Beach it's like the Armenian genocide.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Good God, man, haven't you heard they'll put you in the Rich White Male Death Camps? :eek: It's the Socialism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Look at how they are suffering under Obama. My god, on West Palm Beach it's like the Armenian genocide.

Somehow, someway, I'll muddle through. I'll just keep reminding myself that tomorrow is another day.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Somehow, someway, I'll muddle through. I'll just keep reminding myself that tomorrow is another day.

You should put that on your refrigerator to remind you, right next to the reminder of "another day, another extra large supreme pizza."
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Well, its not like anybody earns their income through their own effort, intellect and choices so I guess you are right...what right do they have to keep it?

That doesn't apply to us though, we're 'ok', right? As long as the line is above us, right?
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Well, its not like anybody earns their income through their own effort, intellect and choices so I guess you are right...what right do they have to keep it?
I love this argument. It's always worded in such a way to make it seem as if ALL of their money is being paid in taxes, and it usually comes off as whining about having to pay taxes at all, as opposed to having to pay X amount in taxes.

I also love how it assumes that a person's "effort, intellect and choices" are 100% of what contributes to their success. It makes a huge contribution, to be sure, but let's not pretend like there aren't other factors at play here.

My wife and I worked hard on our college degrees. We're working hard right now to keep our jobs in a lousy economy. We earn more than most people our age, and we both earn quite a bit compared to a lot of other people in our respective offices. No amount of taxation, barring an obsenely tipped scale, is going to make it that we aren't earning more than a LOT of people in this world. On that token, we certainly notice the fact that our "effort, intellect and choices" are rewarded. Taxation be da.mned.

And you know what? When we were kids, someone else paid for our public school education (including the public money that goes to UW). Someone else paid for police and other public works that keep our streets safe (the economic benefits of a safe neighborhood are immense... from property values to not having to deal with the expense of barring your windows). There's a reason our families didn't have to fight for scraps of meat on the street when we were kids, and it goes well beyond how hard our parents worked to provide for us.

So... while I could go online, act all elitist about my good fortune and complain endlessly about having to pay more taxes than those with less than me... I think its a little more reasonable for me to just put up with it, plan my finances around it, quit whining and try my best to vote for politicians who will try to be a little more efficient with my contributions to the government.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Exactly the response I was looking for.

Are you trying to tell us that 'the rich' (not that you exactly said you were) are people who work, possibly with two incomes, don't begrudge paying a higher amount of taxes than many others and are willing to contribute to society vs. hoard their money, empty their pipes upon the heads of young urchins and try to hide in tax loopholes while sailing on their yacht etc. Seems many on here disagree with you.

So you are telling me that all people who make above average incomes are not trying to declare class warfare on the poor...funny, if I go back and read the comments over the last several days it doesn't seem like that is the sentiment on this board.

Not sure what other factors you are referring to but you do point out that a huge contribution is a result of the individual's doing, not some grand conspiracy to siphon money out of the pockets of the 'working family'. Funny, seems you are a working family.

I pay plenty in taxes, contribute to charity, invest money to help companies grow and hire people and pay salaries, try to set a good example, save for the future, maintain ratios of spending to income, don't feel I should apologize if my investments earn me incremental income and try to teach my kids the value of an education and of a dollar.

There is no doubt that if you make more than the average you'll pay more in taxes. Nobody really 'likes' paying taxes, it is a requirement for the common good but anybody would like to pay less.

My post was in response to what sounded to me like a sense of entitlement to your income, as if taking another 3-4% was nothing, in my opinion implying you deserve to be taxed more.

I disagree. I bear no animosity, nor spite, towards those who make more than I. As you pointed out, by and large, they earn it. And as you point out, if anything is ever said about paying taxes, it gets turned into not wanting to pay anything which, aside from wanting to pay less just like anybody else, is a great way to continue to paint 'the rich' as a selfish bunch of millionaires.

How often have you heard 'the rich' described as a dual income family that does owe it to their own effort and feels that they owe it to society to pay more? How often are they described as people who started out with little and, maybe with some luck, have achieved the part of the american dream related to trying to do 'better'. That doesn't have to be money, but I rarely hear anyone say they'd like to earn less money.

My issue is that in an effort to get people to rationalize not cutting government spending, they have demonized 'the rich' and convinced a fair amount of people that you aren't what you described and there shouldn't be a thought about taking more from you before we seek to save it elsewhere.

That in and of itself is one thing, that we are creating a division between 'the rich' and everybody else concerns me more. Sure there has always been and economic separation, but as you point out, most of the rich earn the money through work and they shouldn't be held out as what is wrong with america.

Nor should we cavalierly decide that they can afford it and take more from them instead of conserving what is spent...that message, "it is fine to take more from people who work to earn an above average living because they can afford it" is not a good long term strategy and while it is one thing for folks on here to moan about it, we hear it from the president as well. He campaigned against people who earn more than what he deems is 'fair', do you think that line of fairness will go up or down over time?

What incentive is there to cut government spending if it is classified as tax cuts for the rich and sold to the majority as "they can afford it"?

Anybody above the 51st percentile better be nervous if that is our decision making criteria.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

I think we're mostly coming from the same perspective. My comment had more to do with the way some of those arguments are worded. The key words are usually to the effect of "keeping their money" or "no one else is entitled to MY money". It's as if wealth was accomplished all on their own, without anyone's help. To me, they imply that everyone's personal wealth is 100% a reflection of their work ethic and drive. As if money is something that is entitled to anyone who works for it, and ****ed if you take it away.

I do believe that to be true, mostly. Perhaps its closer to 80% or 90% a reflection of work ethic, but certainly not 100%. I feel very grateful for all the help (both indirect and direct) I've had along the way- help which includes tax-funded items like public schooling, a well-policed neighborhood, and military benefits that my father and grandfathers before me have used to help get their lives set or retire on.

So to me, paying my taxes (without whining about it) is just part of how I can repay society. You know, to be grateful for how good I have it. I get that people don't want to be taken advantage of through taxation, and I'm certainly hoping to avoid a California sort of situation, but at a certain point, some people just need to be gracious for how ****ing great we have it in America.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Yeah, the rich always lose. It's a curse.

Sarcasm aside, that's not what I meant at all. The rich benefited greatly in lowered taxes under recent Republicans - no argument there. The truth is that the poor benefited even more. So to call the Bush cuts a "giveaway to the rich" as has been done by others and intimated by you, is false. The continued spending spree that has gone on while taxes were lowered on everyone, especially low incomes, is a "giveaway to everyone", that we all will have to to pay for soon.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

The rich benefited greatly in lowered taxes under recent Republicans - no argument there. The truth is that the poor benefited even more.

all at the expense of future generations, rich and poor, who will bear the burden of the "cut taxes, spend more" republican philosophy

We need to raise taxes and cut expenses (including the sacred cow of defense) if we want to avoid being crushed by debt.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Too much right wing stupidity out here. Lets get down to the bottom line. The more money you make, the less % of it you pay in taxes. Why? Because you take advantage of more pre-tax incentives to shield your income. When you're making 20K a year you rarely have that ability.

Don't take my word for it, talk to Warren Buffett, who is on record stating he pays 3% of his income to taxes while his secretary pays a lot, lot more of her income to taxes.

Moving on, lets all give a big shout out to Obama and the Congress for finally reigning in bad banking practices:

http://bostonherald.com/business/general/view.bg?articleid=1256223&srvc=business&position=4
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Sarcasm aside, that's not what I meant at all. The rich benefited greatly in lowered taxes under recent Republicans - no argument there. The truth is that the poor benefited even more. So to call the Bush cuts a "giveaway to the rich" as has been done by others and intimated by you, is false. The continued spending spree that has gone on while taxes were lowered on everyone, especially low incomes, is a "giveaway to everyone", that we all will have to to pay for soon.

Actually I was just being flippant and a dick. Sorry, you do deserve a serious response.

The poor do not benefit "more" when everybody's taxes are cut, ever. Any such scheme shields the rich significantly from tax liability that would have gone in part to fund programs for the poor, while the rich are not being denied the same good by the reduction of the poor's taxes. Now one of two things happens: either those programs are canceled because they can't be afforded, or we keep on spending despite the loss of those tax dollars until the debt rises to the point where austerity measures are necessary, and the programs are cut just the same.

Note this isn't a fairness argument -- it would be perfectly reasonable to argue we shouldn't have poverty assistance programs. But that is a debate different from who "wins" when everybody's taxes are cut.

All arguing that the rich are more significantly affected by taxes really does is point out the degree of inequality. If the rich would really get screwed by a flat across the board tax increase, it isn't the tax increase that's the systemic problem, it's that income distributions are way out of whack.
 
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Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Um, yeah. Get back to me when they finally do something about the GSEs, and the ratings agencies. Moreover, there are still major differences between the House and Senate bills, so it's not over yet.

Are you still mad over the bankrupcy thing? Seems that turned out pretty well in hindsight, as the car companies are now making profits and paying back the $$$.

However, lets not make the perfect the enemy of the good. This legislation regulates derivatives, particularly making sure the parties can cover their end of it (read: AIG), as well as cracking down on BS loan applications with no income documentation, and gimmicky teaser rates to hook you into a loan that jack up right afterwards. Do GSE's still need to be dealt with? Sure. Does this leave the country a lot better off? Yup. Lets give thanks to the brave Dems and 3 GOP'ers for supporting this.

PS - House and Senate versions aren't very far apart according to House leaders.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

If the rich would really get screwed by a flat across the board tax increase,

I certainly don't want to make that argument. We need such an increase immediately to pay for all the votes we've elected people to buy for themselves with our future earnings. Speaking as a member of the poverty class. I would understand the temptation to move overseas, if I were rich. And if things were better anywhere else.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Are you still mad over the bankrupcy thing? Seems that turned out pretty well in hindsight, as the car companies are now making profits and paying back the $$$.

However, lets not make the perfect the enemy of the good. This legislation regulates derivatives, particularly making sure the parties can cover their end of it (read: AIG), as well as cracking down on BS loan applications with no income documentation, and gimmicky teaser rates to hook you into a loan that jack up right afterwards. Do GSE's still need to be dealt with? Sure. Does this leave the country a lot better off? Yup. Lets give thanks to the brave Dems and 3 GOP'ers for supporting this.

PS - House and Senate versions aren't very far apart according to House leaders.

Oh, I'm well beyond the BK issue. Moreover, with over 1500 pages of tripe, there's plenty of room to outmanuever the feds, again. And since much of my job deals with regulatory matters, I'm pretty pleased with that fetid pile of garbage. So much so, that I'll probably spec a new RS-5 this fall. :)

From a macro standpoint, it still does not nothing to reign in the GSEs, and the amazing amount of red ink they are bleeding or the amount of taxpayer support they still need. Throw in nothing to deal with ratings agencies, and their intentional ignorance, and I think there are still some 800 lb gorillas sitting around. Morever, the so-called new consumer lending standards are nothing new. I do, however, like folding OTS into the OCC. Not sure about the new consumer agency, but since it won't be "independent", I'm pretty sure we can still reach it. Another plus, is that there are still strong federal preemptions galore, to prevent Cuomo, Blumenthal, et al. from getting too much mileage.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

So the Washington Times hired Dale Robertson, a Tea Partier, to write about the Tea Party. Decent enough idea, except for the fact that Robertson is the doofus behind this sign:
http://newsone.com/files/2010/01/tea-p.jpg

Just once, I'd like to see conservatives go a week without shooting themselves in the foot.
 
Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

So the Washington Times hired Dale Robertson, a Tea Partier, to write about the Tea Party. Decent enough idea, except for the fact that Robertson is the doofus behind this sign:
http://newsone.com/files/2010/01/tea-p.jpg

Just once, I'd like to see conservatives go a week without shooting themselves in the foot.

*SIGH*

Makes you think they hired him on purpose. Plenty of other people out there... PLENTY.
 
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