Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bush's 'reform' solely to do with the way Fannie and Freddie accounting practices, and little at all to do with the way they conducted their mortgage business?

Fannie (not sure about freddie) got caught cooking the books in 2003/4? and Bush and congress punished them by increasing the loan limit so more people could own homes. I think at this point they only guaranteed 25% of the housing market.

I believe it was around here that Fannie changed their motto from "helping the low-income families own homes" to "helping everyone own homes". And they were priced out of the market because of the loan limit so our congress/Presiden Bush raised it to $400k/700k so everyone could "afford" a home with lobbying from fannie/freddie and the banks. I distinctly remember saying this was the worst idea ever ,espeically after passing the bankruptcy laws.

If you watched the testimony from fannie executives they pretty much said they got into risker loans like Alt-a because by 2004/4 they were losing market share and had run out of qualifed buyers because the rise of home prices vs income level.

You guys should watch cspan and hear the testimony from some of the mortgage underwriters, MBS bundlers and seller .... these guys were following company guidelines, it was refreshing compared to lies, lies and more lies from the executives of these firms. I swear they all sounds the same... "it wasn't my fault" "it was the market" "I didn't know"

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Well, except for Barney, Teddy and any of the other Entitlement Society Leaders.

None of them were President. None of them were (did you read the link I gave?) preaching about the ownership society at the most powerful pulpit on the planet. Your idea of what is power and what is not is startling.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Spot on, MF. Fannie & Freddie control 90% of the secondary mortgage market, and have assets 45% greater than the largest bank in the U.S., and yet people are still going to argue that it was Wall Street's fault? If there is a crisis of confidence, it should be in the GSEs ability to function in a fiscally-responsible manner.....especially since it was their paper that made up the majority of failing CDSs/MBSs. And then consider that Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Nancy Pelosi & Co. blocked over a dozen attempts by the Bush Administration to reform Fannie/Freddie, and you can see which party was complicit in letting this debacle occur.

Poppycock. I already debunked this myth at least twice with you prior. F & F were not the primary lender of the majority of the loans that fell, they came from private lenders, and the other myth was that lenders were forced to offer them.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Poppycock. I already debunked this myth at least twice with you prior. F & F were not the primary lender of the majority of the loans that fell, they came from private lenders, and the other myth was that lenders were forced to offer them.

Then why, pray tell, have the GSEs continued to hemmorage cash for the past few years? Because of their sterling track record of mortgage lending?

Here's what you have to understand: Fannie/Freddie control 90% of the secondary mortgage market. And if look a little deeper, Fannie/Freddie helped drive the private label mortgage industry by increasing their purchases of their mortgage-backed securities. The director of the FHFA had this to say about Fannie/Freddie in June 2009 report:

"Purchases of PLS ultimately proved disastrous for the Enterprises (Fannie/Freddie). Credit and market-value losses would have been even larger had the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO), one of FHFA’s predecessor agencies, not increased the Enterprises’ capital requirement by 30 percent and capped their asset portfolios because of accounting and control problems."

Also noted in the report: 56% of current outstanding mortgages in the U.S. are guaranteed by the GSEs, and 73% of mortgages originated in Q1 2009 are backed by Fannie/Freddie. Also, estimates have Fannie/Freddie exposed to nearly $500 billion in CDSs.

 

[Slap Shot]

I'm not going to waste my time on this with you any longer. I've already provided plenty of real facts that debunks your b.s. two times. Your 90% figure is a lie and what continues to [sic] hemmorage doesn't derail what actually led to the collapse.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

I'm not going to waste my time on this with you any longer. I've already provided plenty of real facts that debunks your b.s. two times. Your 90% figure is a lie and what continues to [sic] hemmorage doesn't derail what actually led to the collapse.

My sincerest apologies. The number was closer to 85% as of last year.

Go bury your head in the sand, and when you're ready to admit that Fannie/Freddie were major players in this whole debacle, I'll be the first one to welcome you back to reality.

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

So THAT'S how the dems managed to get exactly what they wanted done on health care. I was wondering - thanks for clearing that up.

to be fair... when the Dems act in lock-step it isn't evil.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Poppycock. I already debunked this myth at least twice with you prior. F & F were not the primary lender of the majority of the loans that fell, they came from private lenders, and the other myth was that lenders were forced to offer them.

And if Fannie and Freddie were the cause, then why's Plante so certain that there's a coming implosion in commercial real estate?

And whose fault would that be? Certainly not CRA, nor Fannie and Freddie.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

I'm not going to waste my time on this with you any longer. I've already provided plenty of real facts that debunks your b.s. two times. Your 90% figure is a lie and what continues to [sic] hemmorage doesn't derail what actually led to the collapse.

No, no, keep it up dude, I'm not out of beer yet.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

to be fair... when the Dems act in lock-step it isn't evil.

The only reason to bring this up again is that some really don't seem to understand...

Nobody's saying partisan governance is good. But some of us are saying that the results of such recent governance has resulted in...for the Dems, at worst a one-sided policy (ie you'd say healthcare)...vs. for the GOP, economic disaster. I guess you could say the latter makes subsequent Dem governance not too tough to stomach.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

My sincerest apologies. The number was closer to 85% as of last year.

Go bury your head in the sand, and when you're ready to admit that Fannie/Freddie were major players in this whole debacle, I'll be the first one to welcome you back to reality.

Well it's kinda hard to tell how much trouble they were in... $5trillion and not sure how much of that was alt-a and recent prime that were in trouble. After they ran out of money the fed/treasury have been using them to prop up the housing market (hence your 85-90% mortgage guarantees) and using them to funnel all the toxic loans. IE the $1.2Trillion MBS that Federal Reserve bank bought from them.

Although adding something like $2trillion or $3trillion from 2005-2007 was the dumbest move on the planet, especially with alt-a loans.

If you watched the hearings, you would know that MBS sellers like Citi group/Wamu didn't use fannie/freddie backed mortgages or at least not that much.

These guys were so smart they were buying mortgage originators so they wouldn't be locked out of the market. So you had countrywide and others orginating mortgage loans and you had citi group and others backing these guys with line of credit AND buying these mortgages and bundle it (MBS) and sell to bond investors. And you had others doing CDO and making bets using CDS.

But I've to agree that we should eliminate fannie/freddie... these programs were started to help the low-income families get loans and it's been turned into making housing "affordable" for everyone in 2000 and now 2008 into proping up the housing market.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

The only reason to bring this up again is that some really don't seem to understand...

Nobody's saying partisan governance is good. But some of us are saying that the results of such recent governance has resulted in...for the Dems, at worst a one-sided policy (ie you'd say healthcare)...vs. for the GOP, economic disaster. I guess you could say the latter makes subsequent Dem governance not too tough to stomach.

OK, we can play that game:

Clinton Administration: Made possible the legislation that led to your "evil" unregulated derivatives trading after pushing for and achieving loosened lending criteria for Fannie/Freddie. Also presided over the dot-com bubble that burst in 2000-01, which for some reason wasn't a big deal to the anti-Wall Street crowd. Ironically, dot-com IPOs were eerily similar to CDSs now in that stock was issued for start-ups that didn't have any assets backing the paper.....it was reckless speculation in it's basest form.

The Obama Administration will end up leaving this country in a bigger economic mess than what he inherited, mostly due to the massive increases in the public debt and expanded social welfare programs. He's already rolled out his Jump to Conclusions Mat and has recklessly spent over a trillion dollars on a stimulus that experts agree has done very little, and saddled small businesses with a health care bill that will result in either higher unemployment or increased business closures. Cap-and-trade will be another in the line of financial securities that have only theoretical value, and will--once again, noticing a trend here--hurt business. And in his apparently abundant free time, Barry's played more golf in 1+ year than W did in eight.

And I won't even get started on the Jimmy Carter years.

BTW, you keep talking of this "economic disaster" that the GOP caused. Care to share the legislation/policies that caused this?

 

[SteveP]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

to be fair... when the Dems act in lock-step it isn't evil.

Speaking of lock-step -- the local riot cops were called out in Quincy during Barry's visit.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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[Plante26]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Well it's kinda hard to tell how much trouble they were in... $5trillion and not sure how much of that was alt-a and recent prime that were in trouble. After they ran out of money the fed/treasury have been using them to prop up the housing market (hence your 85-90% mortgage guarantees) and using them to funnel all the toxic loans. IE the $1.2Trillion MBS that Federal Reserve bank bought from them.

Although adding something like $2trillion or $3trillion from 2005-2007 was the dumbest move on the planet, especially with alt-a loans.

If you watched the hearings, you would know that MBS sellers like Citi group/Wamu didn't use fannie/freddie backed mortgages or at least not that much.

These guys were so smart they were buying mortgage originators so they wouldn't be locked out of the market. So you had countrywide and others orginating mortgage loans and you had citi group and others backing these guys with line of credit AND buying these mortgages and bundle it (MBS) and sell to bond investors. And you had others doing CDO and making bets using CDS.

But I've to agree that we should eliminate fannie/freddie... these programs were started to help the low-income families get loans and it's been turned into making housing "affordable" for everyone in 2000 and now 2008 into proping up the housing market.

I concur. Cut 'em off and let them stand on their own. No more bailouts, says the White House. It better **** well apply to the GSEs as well. And if they fail, let the market pick up the pieces.....unlike the TARP, which was setting a horrid precedent.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

OK, we can play that game:

Clinton Administration: Made possible the legislation that led to your "evil" unregulated derivatives trading after pushing for and achieving loosened lending criteria for Fannie/Freddie. Also presided over the dot-com bubble that burst in 2000-01, which for some reason wasn't a big deal to the anti-Wall Street crowd. Ironically, dot-com IPOs were eerily similar to CDSs now in that stock was issued for start-ups that didn't have any assets backing the paper.....it was reckless speculation in it's basest form.

Lol, it was big deal at the time... all the investment firms were fined and paid, without admitting wrong doing for misdeeds.

These guys were doing same thing then... saying nasty things about companies over emails etc... while giving glowing reviews.
I think lot of the the analyst pleaded guilty and served few years (suspended) /fined... while several went to trial and were acquitted since it's almost impossible to prove intent in these types of cases.

The biggest difference is the leverage. 2x or 50% for stocks and 50x or 5000% for banks playing the mortgage markets and ???? requirement for CDS. And obvioulsy the bailout of the banks and investors.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Speaking of lock-step -- the local riot cops were called out in Quincy during Barry's visit.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Haha

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Care to share the legislation/policies that caused this?

And once you've done that... Care to share any legislation/policies that actually are designed to fix it? I mean actually designed... not "the headline said it would fix it".

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

And once you've done that... Care to share any legislation/policies that actually are designed to fix it? I mean actually designed... not "the headline said it would fix it".

Are you insinuating that everything that the Obama Administration and Dem-controlled Congress have done nothing but--GASP!--spend over a trillion dollars on a temporary fix?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

temporary fix?

Well, you got half right... I'll give you two guesses which one it is...

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Well, you got half right... I'll give you two guesses which one it is...

Temporary.......'cause it sure as hell didn't fix anything. Unemployment still near 10%, hiring still flat, states still facing massive budget crises across the nation. And unemployment would be slightly higher if not for the hiring of thousands of census workers.

But at least those state government union workers got to keep their jobs for another year.