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Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

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Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

But remember, folks, the tea party is irrelevant.

Based on things like the tax day tea bag protest I'd estimate about 1/3 of the people in my office are active tea partiers, and another 1/3 are at least sympathetic to them in spirit though not politically outspoken. At the same time, I've heard numerous water cooler conversations decrying people like Beck and Palin as terrible embarrassments for their movement, and they don't cross themselves or mutter "socialist traitor" when one of the final 1/3 walks by.

I suspect the tea party as it exists as a forum for regular people to air their concerns is a very different animal than the tea party as a backdrop for right wing media creations to line their pockets. I suspect the same was true of the Paulites, the Naderites, the Perotistas, etc. The bigots, extremists and opportunists grab the leadership (and the spotlight), but many of the people in the background are making a sincere effort and are open to reasonable discussion.

That being said, I hope they don't get a mile within real power, because it's the leadership that gets that power, and those folks are genuinely dangerous.
 
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Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Which, of course, is what we know to be happening with the tea party as well.

http://crashtheteaparty.org/

But remember, folks, the tea party is irrelevant. That's why things like this are necessary.

There are rumblings that this organization is a hoax or not exactly as it portrays itself. I'd wait a few days to see what develops before taking this group too seriously.
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

There are rumblings that this organization is a hoax or not exactly as it portrays itself. I'd wait a few days to see what develops before taking this group too seriously.
It's bunk. Here's what I get when I press join.

General Error
SQL ERROR [ mysql4 ]

User 'madhatter' has exceeded the 'max_questions' resource (current value: 150000) [1226]

An sql error occurred while fetching this page. Please contact an administrator if this problem persists.
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

There are rumblings that this organization is a hoax or not exactly as it portrays itself. I'd wait a few days to see what develops before taking this group too seriously.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...r-plans-to-destroy-the-tea-party-movement.php

This guy openly claims that he believes the tea party movement is loaded to the gills with racists/bigots/sexists/homophobes (you know, Republicans in general). So I guess the question is... if he honestly believes that, why "infiltrate?" Won't those elements naturally shake themselves to the top?
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Ahhh...yes. You're an expat, so you don't pay any taxes, correct?...and since when did investing in real estate and profiteering abroad fall under "putting your life on the line" in the mid-east?

Expats don't have to pay taxes?!? I have a phone call to make.
 
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Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Based on things like the tax day tea bag protest I'd estimate about 1/3 of the people in my office are active tea partiers, and another 1/3 are at least sympathetic to them in spirit though not politically outspoken. At the same time, I've heard numerous water cooler conversations decrying people like Beck and Palin as terrible embarrassments for their movement, and they don't cross themselves or mutter "socialist traitor" when one of the final 1/3 walks by.

I suspect the tea party as it exists as a forum for regular people to air their concerns is a very different animal than the tea party as a backdrop for right wing media creations to line their pockets. I suspect the same was true of the Paulites, the Naderites, the Perotistas, etc. The bigots, extremists and opportunists grab the leadership (and the spotlight), but many of the people in the background are making a sincere effort and are open to reasonable discussion.

That being said, I hope they don't get a mile within real power, because it's the leadership that gets that power, and those folks are genuinely dangerous.

Teabaggers are no different a movement than you always see during periods of prolonged economic distress. Think back to the 30's and the awful governments around the world that gained power in Japan, Italy and of course Germany due to a prolonged depression.

On a much smaller scale, today's recessionary job market is entering its 3rd year. That is making more mainstream people P.O.'d. It has nothing to do with government spending or deficits, two things we had in spades during the years 2002-2008. Once unemployment recedes, so will the anger, and all that will be left are the people who just don't like having a black man as President.:eek: :eek: :eek: ;)
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Teabaggers are no different a movement than you always see during periods of prolonged economic distress. Think back to the 30's and the awful governments around the world that gained power in Japan, Italy and of course Germany due to a prolonged depression.

Those governments were fascist. There are always going to be fascist elements on the fringe of the right -- militarism, nationalism, fundamentalism and anti-intellectualism all trend right -- but my point is it's a mistake to characterize the whole movement by its worst elements. You might as well equate the entire civil rights movement with the Black Panthers. And for that matter, economic crises can also breed far left movements -- Lenin would never have had a chance without severe economic distress.

The real brownshirt movements, the serious ones in the 30's, or post-war Britain, or the various right wing dictatorships in Central and South America, prey on an enormous, indigestible mass of unemployed, young people with no future. That's where Hitler got his muscle from. The people who work with me, well, they work. They don't have college educations but they do have mortgages, kids, things on the line. Fear plays into some of their thinking -- it's amazing to hear otherwise rational people talk about "the gay agenda" -- but it isn't the dominant factor the way it is in the real crazy movements like the militias. They aren't Birthers.

I think it's a big mistake to think of the teabaggers as primarily or even significantly, say, racist, because that is a way of underestimating them. It's the mirror of the right pretending liberals and socialists and communists are all the same thing.
 
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Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

I think the WH press corp will turn on the administration eventually though with the political pressure being what is from their own networks I think you'll see it in incidents and spurts. These guys worked their lives to get into this position and I'm sure they're a prideful lot. When they honestly get the drift that people (and by people I mean their peers) consider them idiots they'll start to get cranky.

---

The only thing the DJIA tells me that the bubble has been re-inflated... which was the intent... you can't go out and spend all kinds of money without the APPEARANCE of a stable economy. Remember where we sit now... nearly 20 months removed from the economy collapse... and no laws have been changed. 20 months. Anybody bet we'll get to two years and beyond?

The idea right now is to do what we can to put off the inevitable because its harmful to a president who wants to change the fundamentals of society. If think we can't afford "change" then it can't happen... if we do think we can it does... whether we can actually afford it is irrelevant because to dems its a moral obligation.

Student loans will be next as the doctor shortage is starting to become obvious. I mean, like, "in the NY Times" obvious.

Just bouncing from one conspiracy theory to another, aren't we?
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Those governments were fascist. There are always going to be fascist elements on the fringe of the right -- militarism, nationalism, fundamentalism and anti-intellectualism all trend right -- but my point is it's a mistake to characterize the whole movement by its worst elements. You might as well equate the entire civil rights movement with the Black Panthers. And for that matter, economic crises can also breed far left movements -- Lenin would never have had a chance without severe economic distress.

The real brownshirt movements, the serious ones in the 30's, or post-war Britain, or the various right wing dictatorships in Central and South America, prey on an enormous, indigestible mass of unemployed, young people with no future. That's where Hitler got his muscle from. The people who work with me, well, they work. They don't have college educations but they do have mortgages, kids, things on the line. Fear plays into some of their thinking -- it's amazing to hear otherwise rational people talk about "the gay agenda" -- but it isn't the dominant factor the way it is in the real crazy movements like the militias. They aren't Birthers.

I think it's a big mistake to think of the teabaggers as primarily or even significantly, say, racist, because that is a way of underestimating them. It's the mirror of the right pretending liberals and socialists and communists are all the same thing.

Never said they were primarily racist. What I am saying is that times of economic distress brings more people into these types of movements, and once the economy gets better these movements historically lose their steam. What I will say is that in this particular case, its easy for a bigoted person to blend in. As I've said before, where were these people when Bush was running up the deficit? I'd also point as evidence some of the signage and verbal assaults laced with racial epithats. Obviously this isn't most of the protesters, but on the other hand these people clearly feel more comfortable spewing this stuff in public now than in recent years.

What the GOP has done over the last 30 years or so to their great discredit is welcome these sort of people with a wink and a nudge. From Reagan looking into rollling back civil rights legislation (something to his credit he abandoned pretty quickly) to the end of campaign McCain-Palin events that started to look like Klan rallies, and even the Southern Strategy before that, a certain tolerance for this nonsense in exchange for votes is always there. As these people become more and more marginalized (old angry white guys are a steadily decreasing % of the electorate at least in Presidential years) do they stick with the GOP who continues to accomodate them, or do they break off into their own movement? To me, a big, BIG problem coming up is immigration reform. If the WH is smart, they'll bring that up right before the 2012 elections. A Republican party desperate to show a big tent mentality has little choice but to embrace it, while a minority but not insignificant portion of their base may very well walk over this alleged betrayal.
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Never said they were primarily racist. What I am saying is that times of economic distress brings more people into these types of movements, and once the economy gets better these movements historically lose their steam. What I will say is that in this particular case, its easy for a bigoted person to blend in. As I've said before, where were these people when Bush was running up the deficit? I'd also point as evidence some of the signage and verbal assaults laced with racial epithats. Obviously this isn't most of the protesters, but on the other hand these people clearly feel more comfortable spewing this stuff in public now than in recent years.

What the GOP has done over the last 30 years or so to their great discredit is welcome these sort of people with a wink and a nudge. From Reagan looking into rollling back civil rights legislation (something to his credit he abandoned pretty quickly) to the end of campaign McCain-Palin events that started to look like Klan rallies, and even the Southern Strategy before that, a certain tolerance for this nonsense in exchange for votes is always there. As these people become more and more marginalized (old angry white guys are a steadily decreasing % of the electorate at least in Presidential years) do they stick with the GOP who continues to accomodate them, or do they break off into their own movement? To me, a big, BIG problem coming up is immigration reform. If the WH is smart, they'll bring that up right before the 2012 elections. A Republican party desperate to show a big tent mentality has little choice but to embrace it, while a minority but not insignificant portion of their base may very well walk over this alleged betrayal.

Wow, that's a lot of broad generalizations, stereotyping and baseless assumptions in one post......even for you, Rover.

Let me retort in Rover-esque fashion:

The vast majority of the Democratic party learned--once the labor movement, New Deal, Civil Rights eras were ushered in--that they had much to gain by pandering to the different emerging voting blocks. By creating entitlement programs using taxpayer money, they could leverage government handouts to ensure a large percentage of affected voters would pull the lever in their favor.

Of course, there is a contingent within the Democratic left that honestly believes that social welfare programs and labor racketeering are answer to the problems of the middle and lower classes; ironically, the vast majority of politicians they vote into office do not emerge from those classes but rather from the upper echelons of the non-profit/public sectors and from law firms that often prey upon the private sector. Not surprisingly, as people who have subsisted on confiscated funds (lawsuit settlements, government funding, etc.), they are of the mindset that private enterprise and capitalism are solely predatory in nature, and that these fundamental pillars of our nation are the reason that the lower classes are unable to advance their lot.

The problem is, the Democratic party has been successful in advancing their agenda by vilifying capitalism while expanding entitlement programs. In doing so, they have created multiple generations of welfare families, reduced the motivation for the middle and lower classes to excel, and promoted the idea that those who have not are victims of a wrongdoing perpetrated by those who have--and that they are entitled to reparations via government handouts. Rather than giving the lower classes a path out of their "plight", they toss them some table scraps in order to buy votes--and subsequently, keeping them in their place. Unfortunately, this rush to social justice will do nothing to improve the lives of Americans.....unless making relatively few people feel better about things being "fair" and "equal" counts as improvement.
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

Depends what the Obama immigration reform plan is. Meaningful reform includes a path to citizenship, and while that's good policy it's bad politics. The only way legit reform gets done is the way we got serious welfare reform and (oh so briefly) serious deficit reduction -- genuine bipartisanship.

I do agree that better economic times will starve the tea party of its more mainstream membership.
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

scary. just saw a poll. Obama 42% Ron Paul 41%.


Polls like this are beautiful. I hope the mainsteam Republican voters take them seriously. Lets just say that I am 100% on board with Ron Paul being the GOP nominee for President in 2012. :D :D :D :D :D
 
Re: Obama XI: Turn And Face The Strange

In the 1950s, Democratic senators from the solidly Democratic South uniformly supported segregation and opposed civil rights and voting rights bills. They dutifully spent long hours on the Senate floor filibustering such efforts. Legend has it that during one marathon filibuster, after Olin Johnston of South Carolina, a populist liberal on economic matters, handed off the baton to Strom Thurmond, Johnston went into the cloakroom where many of his colleagues were seated, gestured back toward the Senate floor, and said, "Old Strom, he really believes that [expletive]."

This story came to mind with the recent blizzard of attacks on Barack Obama by Republican presidential wannabes and other office-seekers, along with their allies on cable television and talk radio. The most extravagant rhetoric has come out of the gathering of Southern Republicans in New Orleans, led by former House speaker Newt Gingrich, who called Obama "the most radical president in American history" and urged his partisan audience to stop Obama's "secular, socialist machine."

At the same conference, Liz Cheney, the former vice president's daughter who is often mentioned as a possible Senate candidate from Virginia, fiercely attacked Obama's foreign policy as "apologize for America, abandon our allies and appease our enemies." And last week the ubiquitous Sarah Palin said of the arms-control treaty Obama signed with Russia, "No administration in America's history would, I think, ever have considered such a step," likening it to a kid telling others in a playground fight, "Go ahead, punch me in the face and I'm not going to retaliate."

On talk radio, Rush Limbaugh accused Obama of administering "statist-assisted suicide." Talk show host Michael Savage called Obama's health-care plan "socialized medicine" and described the nuclear treaty as "insane." These are not isolated comments; the terms "radical," "socialist" and even "totalitarian" are bandied about frequently by Obama opponents, including congressional and other GOP leaders.

To one outside the partisan and ideological wars, charges of radicalism, socialism, retreat and surrender are, frankly, bizarre. The Democrats' health-reform plan includes no public option and relies on managed competition through exchanges set up much like those for federal employees. The individual mandate in the plan sprang from a Heritage Foundation idea that was endorsed years ago by a range of conservatives and provided the backbone of the Massachusetts plan that was crafted and, until recently, heartily defended by Mitt Romney. It would be fair to describe the new act as Romneycare crossed with the managed-competition bill proposed in 1994 by Republican Sens. John Chafee, David Durenberger, Charles Grassley and Bob Dole -- in other words, as a moderate Republican plan. Among its supporters is Durenberger, no one's idea of a radical socialist.

What about Obama's other domestic initiatives? The stimulus was anything but radical -- indeed, many mainstream observers, me included, thought it was too timid in size and scope given the enormity of the problems. The plan could have been more focused on swift and directed stimulus. It included such diversions as a fix for the alternative minimum tax -- at the insistence of Grassley. And it excluded some "shovel-ready" ideas such as school construction -- at the insistence of Republican Sen. Susan Collins. It did not include the kind of public works jobs program employed by Franklin Roosevelt. Nonetheless, it has been widely credited with ameliorating the worst effects of the downturn and helping to move us back toward economic growth. The widely criticized Troubled Assets Relief Program -- initiated by Obama's predecessor -- is now returning to the Treasury most of the taxpayer money laid out to keep us from depression and deflation.

It is true that, in an attempt to head off a meltdown stemming from a collapse of the automobile industry, Obama engineered a temporary takeover of two of the Big Three auto companies. But nothing suggests that this is anything but temporary, and Obama has resisted many calls to take over major banks and other financial institutions.

The nuclear treaty with Russia excoriated by Palin, Savage and others was endorsed by Indiana Sen. Richard Lugar, the GOP's resident foreign policy expert, and it was crafted under Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who was first appointed to that post by George W. Bush. Obama's approach to terrorism has been similar to Bush's, while more aggressively targeting leaders of terrorist groups; his larger foreign policy has received the seal of approval from James Baker, former chief of staff to Ronald Reagan and secretary of state to George H.W. Bush. Obama's energy policies include more nuclear power and more offshore drilling. Obama's education policies have received wide acclaim across the political spectrum. The "secular" president has shored up and supported federal faith-based initiatives, to the dismay of many in his base.

Looking at the range of Obama domestic and foreign policies, and his agency and diplomatic appointments, my conclusion is clear: This president is a mainstream, pragmatic moderate, operating in the center of American politics; center-left, perhaps, but not left of center. The most radical president in American history? Does Newt Gingrich, a PhD in history, really believe that [expletive]?

Was this written by...

A) Ezra Klein of The American Prospect
B) Rachel Maddow of MSNBC
C) Norm Ornstein of the ultra-liberal American Enterprise Institute
D) Maureen Dowd of the New York Times
E) Author Christoper Hitchens
 
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