Jon
Say, this is nice.
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
If I do nothing else today, I can build temporary consensus.
If I do nothing else today, I can build temporary consensus.
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Obama V: For Vendetta
- Thread starter Red Cloud
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Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
There are a couple of things I disagree with here. With al Qaeda operating in Iraq before the war, it may not have exactly been a sanctuary but they were there, and operating. Throw in Saddam being an overall doosh and, as I mentioned before, there being a need for a democratic Arab ally in the Middle East (Afghanistan and Turkey aren't in the Middle East really, Afghanistan is in South Asia and Turkey is more European than Middle Eastern and aren't Arab anyway).
The WMD issue is being overlooked as well. It did turn out to be untrue - Saddam told the FBI after his capture that he was mostly just paranoid over Iran and had exaggerated his capabilities because A) he wanted to keep Iran from invading him and B) didn't think the US had the balls to go in there and take him out - but ahead of the war, even the French and the Russians weren't denying the WMDs. Hindsight is 20/20. If I'd known ahead of time that there were NO WMD in Iraq, would I have supported invasion? I don't know. I tend to think I probably wouldn't have. But as Colin Powell said, you can't unspill the milk. So once we were in Iraq, what were we supposed to do? Leave and make a bad situation worse?
My time in Iraq opened my eyes. I had been a supporter before going, but now I know I'll never apologize for that support. I saw some amazing things that I'll carry with me the rest of my life, between smiling children playing soccer to an AQI insurgent getting lit the smeg up when he tried to attack a civilian vehicle. The most poignant moment came on a "fodder mission" when we went to distribute fertilizer to farmers (Iraq, already a desert, is in the middle of a big drought in the north). A young child came running up to the private that was driving my truck, and gave his leg a big hug. His father came over and apologized (I guess it was an inappropriate display in their culture). This private, one of the biggest "macho men" in my platoon, five minutes later, was sitting in his truck bawling his eyes out.
So for me, arguing that we should never have been in Iraq is a non-starter. You aren't going to get anywhere with me, and it's partially due to emotion, which I usually try to filter in my decision making.
There are a couple of things I disagree with here. With al Qaeda operating in Iraq before the war, it may not have exactly been a sanctuary but they were there, and operating. Throw in Saddam being an overall doosh and, as I mentioned before, there being a need for a democratic Arab ally in the Middle East (Afghanistan and Turkey aren't in the Middle East really, Afghanistan is in South Asia and Turkey is more European than Middle Eastern and aren't Arab anyway).
The WMD issue is being overlooked as well. It did turn out to be untrue - Saddam told the FBI after his capture that he was mostly just paranoid over Iran and had exaggerated his capabilities because A) he wanted to keep Iran from invading him and B) didn't think the US had the balls to go in there and take him out - but ahead of the war, even the French and the Russians weren't denying the WMDs. Hindsight is 20/20. If I'd known ahead of time that there were NO WMD in Iraq, would I have supported invasion? I don't know. I tend to think I probably wouldn't have. But as Colin Powell said, you can't unspill the milk. So once we were in Iraq, what were we supposed to do? Leave and make a bad situation worse?
My time in Iraq opened my eyes. I had been a supporter before going, but now I know I'll never apologize for that support. I saw some amazing things that I'll carry with me the rest of my life, between smiling children playing soccer to an AQI insurgent getting lit the smeg up when he tried to attack a civilian vehicle. The most poignant moment came on a "fodder mission" when we went to distribute fertilizer to farmers (Iraq, already a desert, is in the middle of a big drought in the north). A young child came running up to the private that was driving my truck, and gave his leg a big hug. His father came over and apologized (I guess it was an inappropriate display in their culture). This private, one of the biggest "macho men" in my platoon, five minutes later, was sitting in his truck bawling his eyes out.
So for me, arguing that we should never have been in Iraq is a non-starter. You aren't going to get anywhere with me, and it's partially due to emotion, which I usually try to filter in my decision making.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
I agree. We can start with that stupid Education Bill your favorite President supported.
I agree. We can start with that stupid Education Bill your favorite President supported.
French Rage
NICKERSON HAS [CENSORED]
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
...ya as you said...because its not in the Constitution. Nice logic.
...ya as you said...because its not in the Constitution. Nice logic.
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
I didn't realize that Rove, or anyone in the prior admin. was a "gay basher"... I'm possibly less in tune with the issue than many people... but do you mind if I use your second sentence in a letter I'm composing for Dear Leader relating to capitalism bashing?
I didn't realize that Rove, or anyone in the prior admin. was a "gay basher"... I'm possibly less in tune with the issue than many people... but do you mind if I use your second sentence in a letter I'm composing for Dear Leader relating to capitalism bashing?
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
You are the one who lacks any semblance of logic, not I. You keep veering off the discussion path like you've got an extreme case of ADHD.
You are the one who lacks any semblance of logic, not I. You keep veering off the discussion path like you've got an extreme case of ADHD.
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
Bush? My favorite President?
Oh wait, I already knew you didn't pay attention.
I hope you hold your breath waiting for me to disagree with the need to get rid of that abortion of an education bill. Matter of fact, let's abolish the DOE while we're at it.
Bush? My favorite President?
Oh wait, I already knew you didn't pay attention.
I hope you hold your breath waiting for me to disagree with the need to get rid of that abortion of an education bill. Matter of fact, let's abolish the DOE while we're at it.
ScottM
**** it feels good to be a bankster
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
Fine by me, and I'll go one step further, we can abolish Social Security and Medicaid next.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
That's the reductio ad absurdum of laissez-faire rhetoric. Guaranteed winner in the voting booth.
But at least it's a logically consistent argument. Instead you have town hall screamers yelling "git the gummint outta my life but dontcha touch ma med-eye-care," and their GOP reps, who know they're talking -- literally -- nonsense, egging them on. That's why the right has no honest leaders right now -- they can't have; their belief system is a self-contradiction.
That's the reductio ad absurdum of laissez-faire rhetoric. Guaranteed winner in the voting booth.
But at least it's a logically consistent argument. Instead you have town hall screamers yelling "git the gummint outta my life but dontcha touch ma med-eye-care," and their GOP reps, who know they're talking -- literally -- nonsense, egging them on. That's why the right has no honest leaders right now -- they can't have; their belief system is a self-contradiction.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
Sure, that's where the comedy comes in. We've seen it time and time again in this debate.
That's the reductio ad absurdum of laissez-faire rhetoric. Guaranteed winner in the voting booth.
But at least it's a logically consistent argument. Instead you have town hall screamers yelling "git the gummint outta my life but dontcha touch ma med-eye-care," and their GOP reps, who know they're talking -- literally -- nonsense, egging them on. That's why the right has no honest leaders right now -- they can't have; their belief system is a self-contradiction.
Sure, that's where the comedy comes in. We've seen it time and time again in this debate.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
In fifty years everyone will look at today's hard right the way we today look at the southern Democrats of the 1950's: intolerant, paranoid, violent freakazoids. The last administration fed that tiger for their own political interests. Violent rhetoric -- even when it's completely hypocritical like theirs -- can lead to violent action by the poor suckers who aren't in on the game and take it seriously.
In fifty years everyone will look at today's hard right the way we today look at the southern Democrats of the 1950's: intolerant, paranoid, violent freakazoids. The last administration fed that tiger for their own political interests. Violent rhetoric -- even when it's completely hypocritical like theirs -- can lead to violent action by the poor suckers who aren't in on the game and take it seriously.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
It never ceases to amaze me the lengths they went to to win in '04.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
RC, I won't argue that our adventure in Iraq has been a blessing for those who suffered under Saddam. I won't argue how touching it must be to witness their gratitude first hand. To know that something worthwhile came from this is indeed a silver lining.
But I will argue that it is irrelevant to why we were there in the first place, and it certainly doesn't mean that our foray into Iraq suddenly has a tangible benefit for our fight against terrorists. If we can say that the Iraq government was in league with al Qaeda similar to the Taliban, its a different story, but that's just not the case. The closest potential benefit is, as you say, having an Arab Ally. But even then, there's no assurance as to how that will change the culture of the extremists who wish to attack us.
The security of our nation is better served by focusing on destroying al Qaeda, and fighting those who would try to rise from its ashes. If we want to stage coup after coup for humanitarian reasons, then there's a long line of nations that are just as deserving as Iraq for that treatment.
RC, I won't argue that our adventure in Iraq has been a blessing for those who suffered under Saddam. I won't argue how touching it must be to witness their gratitude first hand. To know that something worthwhile came from this is indeed a silver lining.
But I will argue that it is irrelevant to why we were there in the first place, and it certainly doesn't mean that our foray into Iraq suddenly has a tangible benefit for our fight against terrorists. If we can say that the Iraq government was in league with al Qaeda similar to the Taliban, its a different story, but that's just not the case. The closest potential benefit is, as you say, having an Arab Ally. But even then, there's no assurance as to how that will change the culture of the extremists who wish to attack us.
The security of our nation is better served by focusing on destroying al Qaeda, and fighting those who would try to rise from its ashes. If we want to stage coup after coup for humanitarian reasons, then there's a long line of nations that are just as deserving as Iraq for that treatment.
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
Violent rhetoric? Good Barack, you think OUR side is using the violent rhetoric, Kepler?
Bill Maher, please call your office.
Yes, there are some dopes that were at that rally on Saturday that were full of "violent rhetoric," but that was the most peaceful protest DC has seen in decades. That ought to be somewhat telling.
Violent rhetoric? Good Barack, you think OUR side is using the violent rhetoric, Kepler?
Bill Maher, please call your office.
Yes, there are some dopes that were at that rally on Saturday that were full of "violent rhetoric," but that was the most peaceful protest DC has seen in decades. That ought to be somewhat telling.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
We could start with South Carolina...
If we were humanitarians we'd be interceding in failed states without oil. We're only in it for the money (C).
We could start with South Carolina...
If we were humanitarians we'd be interceding in failed states without oil. We're only in it for the money (C).
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
Can't agree with you there. The town hallers (other than maybe the small fringe element) aren't asking the government to get totally out of their lives, even in terms of health care. But they are at the point where they see the government becoming much too involved, and they've had enough. If the health care bill were to be implemented the way Obama and most of the Dems want to see things, we would have the government totally taking over health care/insurance. That's what the town hallers don't want to see. The leaders on the left are paving the road to Socialism. Between both parties, it's no wonder the country is going down the tubes.That's the reductio ad absurdum of laissez-faire rhetoric. Guaranteed winner in the voting booth.
But at least it's a logically consistent argument. Instead you have town hall screamers yelling "git the gummint outta my life but dontcha touch ma med-eye-care," and their GOP reps, who know they're talking -- literally -- nonsense, egging them on. That's why the right has no honest leaders right now -- they can't have; their belief system is a self-contradiction.
Re: Obama V: For Vendetta
You're looking for the Golden Ticket, the One Thing that we can do to end threats to our country and end the war. Iraq is not that One Thing, but it isn't Nothing. Iraq, like Afghanistan, is in the process of being denied to terrorists as a place where they can operate. That isn't the end all, be all of this war. Nothing is.
Not long after we touched down in Iraq last year, there was a cross-border raid into Syria to bomb the smeg out of a bunch of terrorists. Wouldn't have happened if we hadn't been in Iraq - no access. Just a minor example.
You're looking for the Golden Ticket, the One Thing that we can do to end threats to our country and end the war. Iraq is not that One Thing, but it isn't Nothing. Iraq, like Afghanistan, is in the process of being denied to terrorists as a place where they can operate. That isn't the end all, be all of this war. Nothing is.
Not long after we touched down in Iraq last year, there was a cross-border raid into Syria to bomb the smeg out of a bunch of terrorists. Wouldn't have happened if we hadn't been in Iraq - no access. Just a minor example.
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