Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Why not work to make it so that more people can afford to be insured to begin with. If you were to bring rates down, very few people would be uninsured unless they chose to go without insurance. In that case make it widely known that they will be responsible for their own care. Its not a coincidence that the more gov't has gotten involved with healthcare the faster costs have gone up.

The easiest way to bring insurance costs down is to get rid of pre-paid medicine. Have people pay for routine issues out of pocket and offer catestrophic coverage for major items. Virtually everyone could aford coverage in a system like that.

Hey, that sounds great!

Now, how exactly do you plan to bring rates down? I keep hearing those on the left saying this, yet the most realistic plan to actually accomplish the goal seems to involve a magic elixir made from the tears of unicorns.

By the way, your assertion about government involvement and costs is just plain wrong.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Not as long as we let people who "chose poorly," to steal a line from Last Crusade, to nevertheless receive treatment anyway, thereby rendering their so-called "choice" (in reality, a gamble) meaningless. It's akin to throwing all your money on red, but when black hits the house gives you a do-over. Doesn't work in the real world.

So long as society says "you will receive treatment whether or not you carry insurance," society can also say "you will have insurance."

If you get rid of the former, and allow people to die from otherwise treatable wounds because they were too stupid to carry insurance, then I'd agree with you. But good luck getting doctors to agree to a "let them die" standard.

Exactly. Well said.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Its not a coincidence that the more gov't has gotten involved with healthcare the faster costs have gone up.

I'm curious. I'm all for smaller gov't and lower taxes in principle.

But why is it every other industrialized nation's government can provide health care with lower costs than us? Are our politicians really that much worse than France's or Britain's? Or is the American public that much dumber (possible, though I have a feeling the average frenchie is just as dumb)?

How do you explain this phenomenon?

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I'm curious. I'm all for smaller gov't and lower taxes in principle.

But why is it every other industrialized nation's government can provide health care with lower costs than us? Are our politicians really that much worse than France's or Britain's? Or is the American public that much dumber (possible, though I have a feeling the average frenchie is just as dumb)?

How do you explain this phenomenon?

Thats simple. They ration and have price controls.

 

[Slap Shot]

Why not work to make it so that more people can afford to be insured to begin with. If you were to bring rates down, very few people would be uninsured unless they chose to go without insurance. In that case make it widely known that they will be responsible for their own care. Its not a coincidence that the more gov't has gotten involved with healthcare the faster costs have gone up.

Great idea, but if it were that easy would the industry not have already policed itself and brought their costs down? Either way isn't it always your contention that private industry simply charges what the market demands? And short of the providers doing it themselves, then we're faced with government involvement which you've already said is the reason why costs are up.

btw - please detail the increased governement involvement in the hc industry and the subsequent higher costs it created.

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

The same theme keeps coming through for the anti-health care reform crowd. All of their solutions are either unworkable or have no basis in reality. For example:

1) As has been repeatedly stated, if you aren't going to deny the uninsured ER treatment then you reward the irresponsible people who game the system at the expense of the rest of us taxpayers. "Making it widely known" that they're responsible for their own care is probably the stupidest thing ever written on this subject. Either by law they can't get treatment or the whole conservative approach doesn't work.

2) The idea that "pre-paid medicine" as in preventative care should all be paid out of pocket and insurance only for catastrophies is opposite of any health care study known to mankind, which state that catching problems BEFORE they turn into major issues is the key to keeping health care costs down. In MinnFan's world, apparently having people blow off routine care because they can't afford it will somehow lead to less medical costs even as issues go untreated for years until they result in a long term hospital stay. Again, not sure what planet this logic works on, but its not Earth.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

good discussion this morning...if we are concerned about people creating a drag on others by not having insurance, or not covering the cost of their treatment, thus passing it on to others etc...why not make smoking illegal? It is a 'choice' that drives as much real and collateral costs onto other citizens as any other choice you can make.

The act of smoking serves no purpose; aside from stockholders in RJR, nobody benefits from smoking. If it is true that in one year smokers generate enough butts to fill Fenway Park, then we could do without the litter and landfill issues.

Smoking contributes to or directly causes plenty of deaths and drives huge costs into the country that aren't offset by taxes. Even if you could tax it enough to 'make money' we would basically be taxing people to kill themselves and distract our healthcare infrastructure from issues that weren't self-inflicted.

If the majority can vote to subject the minority to higher taxes to pay for social programs that only benefit the majority, why can't the majority vote to outlaw smoking?

If the same situation was occuring only in your house...would you allow the 1 person to spend money on such an activity, support them with your income if they become sick and take the risk that you could also become sick from them engaging in that acivity? If their illness was also going to cause your basic healthcare to be compromised through constrained resources or not be paid for by a third party due to a lack of funding...how long would you allow that to continue?

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

2) The idea that "pre-paid medicine" as in preventative care should all be paid out of pocket and insurance only for catastrophies is opposite of any health care study known to mankind, which state that catching problems BEFORE they turn into major issues is the key to keeping health care costs down.

Pre-paid medicine and preventive care are two different things. Most people take part in preventive care because it winds up saving them money in the long run (plus they don't like to get sick). You change the oil in your car so that the engine doesn't blow out down the road.

Please show me the numbers on how much we would actually save in costs by providing more preventive care over what the increase in taxes would be to everyone else.

 

[Slap Shot]

I find it interesting that Republicans want to completely scrap all current HC reform proposals and start from scratch. The same Republicans that did nothing to faciliate moving HC into the future while they controlled the WH and Congress for 6 years.

I'm not completely averse to the idea of starting from scratch, but given their track record and utter refusal to already provide a substantial counter-proposal, it's a bit like the boy that cried wolf.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

good discussion this morning...if we are concerned about people creating a drag on others by not having insurance, or not covering the cost of their treatment, thus passing it on to others etc...why not make smoking illegal? It is a 'choice' that drives as much real and collateral costs onto other citizens as any other choice you can make.

The act of smoking serves no purpose; aside from stockholders in RJR, nobody benefits from smoking. If it is true that in one year smokers generate enough butts to fill Fenway Park, then we could do without the litter and landfill issues.

Smoking contributes to or directly causes plenty of deaths and drives huge costs into the country that aren't offset by taxes. Even if you could tax it enough to 'make money' we would basically be taxing people to kill themselves and distract our healthcare infrastructure from issues that weren't self-inflicted.

If the majority can vote to subject the minority to higher taxes to pay for social programs that only benefit the majority, why can't the majority vote to outlaw smoking?

If the same situation was occuring only in your house...would you allow the 1 person to spend money on such an activity, support them with your income if they become sick and take the risk that you could also become sick from them engaging in that acivity? If their illness was also going to cause your basic healthcare to be compromised through constrained resources or not be paid for by a third party due to a lack of funding...how long would you allow that to continue?

There's more to it than that. Smokers should and do pay much higher premiums for their insurance because of their higher risk. It's the same thing with auto insurance - riskier drivers pay more.

We also tax the sale of tobacco for this purpose and regulate the sale and use. This isn't just to raise funds, it's also a tax to reduce smoking by increasing the price.

Point being, your hypothetical for an all-out ban is not completely necessary. We've built in a number of policies designed to help cover the negative externalities (such as second-hand smoke) and keep the risk costs personal - those that chose to take more risk via smoking will pay more in premiums.

So, I don't find your slippery slope scenario all that troubling.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Great idea, but if it were that easy would the industry not have already policed itself and brought their costs down? Either way isn't it always your contention that private industry simply charges what the market demands? And short of the providers doing it themselves, then we're faced with government involvement which you've already said is the reason why costs are up.

Insurance companies aren't allowed to offer that option. States mandate more must be covered.

btw - please detail the increased governement involvement in the hc industry and the subsequent higher costs it created.

Up until the late 60's health care costs tracked right along with normal inflation. From that point on they have outpaced it. This just happens to be when Medicare/Medicaid came about.

When there is a third party paying for something you are going to use more of it. That third party doesn't want to lose you as a client (or your vote) so they willingly cover more and more.

Healthcare costs are rising higher than ever and the gov't pays for 50%. If the gov't was so good at keeping costs down then why wouldn't we be paying less than ever considering they now essentially control the market?

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I find it interesting that Republicans want to completely scrap all current HC reform proposals and start from scratch. The same Republicans that did nothing to faciliate moving HC into the future while they controlled the WH and Congress for 6 years.

I'm not completely averse to the idea of starting from scratch, but given their track record and utter refusal to already provide a substantial counter-proposal, it's a bit like the boy that cried wolf.

Delay tactics, nothing more.

The inconsistencies in the Republican party line are enormous. The Dems just need to take advantage of them.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I find it interesting that Republicans want to completely scrap all current HC reform proposals and start from scratch. The same Republicans that did nothing to faciliate moving HC into the future while they controlled the WH and Congress for 6 years.

I'm not completely averse to the idea of starting from scratch, but given their track record and utter refusal to already provide a substantial counter-proposal, it's a bit like the boy that cried wolf.

What's even more amazing is that at CPAC this year Mitt Romney informed the mob that if Obamacare is passed it will destroy Medicare.

That line of rhetoric has been running non-stop for months now and I still can't make any sense of it.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Up until the late 60's health care costs tracked right along with normal inflation. From that point on they have outpaced it. This just happens to be when Medicare/Medicaid came about.

When there is a third party paying for something you are going to use more of it. That third party doesn't want to lose you as a client (or your vote) so they willingly cover more and more.

Healthcare costs are rising higher than ever and the gov't pays for 50%. If the gov't was so good at keeping costs down then why wouldn't we be paying less than ever considering they now essentially control the market?

Wow. That has got to be one of the worst and most misleading graphical representations of data I've ever seen.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I agree that it's a good thing to have, and I'm certainly glad you're still alive.
But shouldn't people be allowed to make a personal choice about it?

Sure, as long as we don't have to listen to them cry and whine about their unfortunate situation the minute they get seriously sick or injured. But you know that's gonna happen.

That's the major thing I don't like about the Dem's plan, is the mandate to have insurance.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

What's even more amazing is that at CPAC this year Mitt Romney informed the mob that if Obamacare is passed it will destroy Medicare.

That line of rhetoric has been running non-stop for months now and I still can't make any sense of it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Insurance companies aren't allowed to offer that option. States mandate more must be covered.

Up until the late 60's health care costs tracked right along with normal inflation. From that point on they have outpaced it. This just happens to be when Medicare/Medicaid came about.

When there is a third party paying for something you are going to use more of it. That third party doesn't want to lose you as a client (or your vote) so they willingly cover more and more.

Healthcare costs are rising higher than ever and the gov't pays for 50%. If the gov't was so good at keeping costs down then why wouldn't we be paying less than ever considering they now essentially control the market?

So, Mitt Romney is lying then? Obamacare isn't going to destroy Medicare, Medicare is going to destroy Health Care?

Got it.

 

[eaglehockeyrules]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Delay tactics, nothing more.

The inconsistencies in the Republican party line are enormous. The Dems just need to take advantage of them.

But the Dems have NOT taken advantage of the chinks in the republican armour. In fact, even with a "super majority" Obama, the house, and the sentate failed to enact anything except waste a clouple of reams of paper for this bill... you know, the bill that no one read because it was such a crisis ithad to be rushed through? The same bill that the authors really did not know what it contained and dodged public questioning of. The very same bill that even the Dems could agree upon?

The Dems squandered a once in a lifetime opportunity.

People in America are ticked off, and it is not just SEIU either, but seemingly folks are voting out anyone with "D" after their name: see Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

Up until the late 60's health care costs tracked right along with normal inflation. From that point on they have outpaced it. This just happens to be when Medicare/Medicaid came about.

Your graph leaves much to be desired with respect to explaining the relationship between increased costs and government involvement, especially considering you can see the rise clearly started prior to the implemenation of Medicare.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 9 -- Its Been a Whole Year Now

I find it interesting that Republicans want to completely scrap all current HC reform proposals and start from scratch. The same Republicans that did nothing to faciliate moving HC into the future while they controlled the WH and Congress for 6 years.

I'm not completely averse to the idea of starting from scratch, but given their track record and utter refusal to already provide a substantial counter-proposal, it's a bit like the boy that cried wolf.

Right. If they were so gung ho to reform healthcare, then why haven't they done so in the 16 years since 1994? Yiu know, offer even something?