Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

[Rover]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

\

How does this "save" anything? Even if you believe the CBO numbers that money comes from somewhere. That is $900B that would have been put to use in the private economy. Thats the part that gets completely overlooked in all of this. If this passes, sadly, people will be longing for the days of 9.7% unemployment in a couple of years.

Incorrect, as Medicare payment reductions is money that would been spent by the government but now could be spent in the private economy. Remember, this isn't a deficit funded bill. Its reducing the amount of govt money being spent, theoretically leaving more money to be used elsewhere (hopefully in paying down debt obligations).

 

[moe24]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Moe,

The problem with treating "those who disagree" with respect is that the anti-reform argument has been hijacked by morons. Think about it. What have you heard more of: the logistics of health providers accomodating 30M new clients (a legitimate concern) or death panels (lunatic finge)? How often has some idiot on Medicare shown up with a sign at a rally saying "keep the government out of healthcare"? I'd be happy to have a reasoned discussion, but look no further than this board to realize the folly of trying to do that. Obama misspoke the other day at a rally (saying premiums will go down 3000% on avg instead of the 3K he meant to say) and the usual gasbags posted the usual stupidity. Why is this happening? Simply put, there is no viable GOP alternative that saves as much nor covers as many people. That's why they haven't united around a plan. Do you truly believe anything would get done on this issue if the GOP was running things? I'm guessing no, and we'd be back to an unsustainable square one. That's why idiots need to be called out and embarassed. Frankly, they deserve it.

I don't by this argument one bit. Yes there are morons out there, but they are on both sides of the issue and I don't see you calling out the idiot extremists on your side.

And you are right that the GOP hasn't gotten anything done (not that they have the power to now anyway) and they have no one to blame but themselves. They had 6 years with Dubya in office and a GOP led Congress to do something and they didn't. Shame on them. But at the same token what the Dems are proposing is horrible. Just because they are doing something doesn't mean they are doing the right thing. And sometimes it really is better to do nothing then to do the wrong thing.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Incorrect, as Medicare payment reductions is money that would been spent by the government but now could be spent in the private economy. Remember, this isn't a deficit funded bill. Its reducing the amount of govt money being spent, theoretically leaving more money to be used elsewhere (hopefully in paying down debt obligations).

Really, then why all the new taxes?

 

[Rover]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

I don't by this argument one bit. Yes there are morons out there, but they are on both sides of the issue and I don't see you calling out the idiot extremists on your side.

And you are right that the GOP hasn't gotten anything done (not that they have the power to now anyway) and they have no one to blame but themselves. They had 6 years with Dubya in office and a GOP led Congress to do something and they didn't. Shame on them. But at the same token what the Dems are proposing is horrible. Just because they are doing something doesn't mean they are doing the right thing. And sometimes it really is better to do nothing then to do the wrong thing.

Don't buy it all you want, but the idea that Dems have fear mongered this issue as much as the GOP is stark raving stupid. It has absolutely no basis in reality. I don't recall anything from the left as widespread or blatantly false as the death panel argument.

To your next point, you're basically saying you want to do nothing. Because, in reality (there's that word again) if this effort fails health care reform will not be attempted by gun shy politicians for another generation, by which time deficits will continue to get worse. You have to know that, unless you're one of these "tort reform solves all problems" people. Get this passed and once the dye is cast on reforming health care its gets easier to tweak it here and there. Lose this effort and absolutely nothing gets attemped for years. That's the choice the country is facing right now. Expanding access at a deficit neutral and even deficit reducing cost, or doing nothing at all.

Really, then why all the new taxes?

To discourage overuse of the system. Cadillac plans for example. Same reason why you pay a co-pay per visit. Its so you don't run to the doctor every time you sneeze or get a splinter.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

To discourage overuse of the system. Cadillac plans for example. Same reason why you pay a co-pay per visit. Its so you don't run to the doctor every time you sneeze or get a splinter.

I haven't laughed that hard in a while. If it was purely to discourage use then why bother counting them in the CBO estimate? Glad to see we are discouraging the use of medical devices that improve the quality of peoples' lives. Also, how does adding medicare taxes to investment income discourage use?

 

[moe24]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Don't buy it all you want, but the idea that Dems have fear mongered this issue as much as the GOP is stark raving stupid. It has absolutely no basis in reality. I don't recall anything from the left as widespread or blatantly false as the death panel argument.

To your next point, you're basically saying you want to do nothing. Because, in reality (there's that word again) if this effort fails health care reform will not be attempted by gun shy politicians for another generation, by which time deficits will continue to get worse. You have to know that, unless you're one of these "tort reform solves all problems" people. Get this passed and once the dye is cast on reforming health care its gets easier to tweak it here and there. Lose this effort and absolutely nothing gets attemped for years. That's the choice the country is facing right now. Expanding access at a deficit neutral and even deficit reducing cost, or doing nothing at all.

What a sad, sad person you are if you think it's OK to insult entire groups of people simply because a few people made false statements based on bad information.

And I am not saying I want to do nothing. I am saying that doing nothing isn't as bad as doing something wrong. I want health care reformed, not ruined.

As for tort reform, I don't know who you're listening to but i don't know a single person who believes or claims that tort reform is some golden ticket to sure to solve all of health care's ills. But I also haven't heard a single good argument as to why tort reform shouldn't be a part of health care reform either. The only reason it isn't in there is because the Dems are making the trial lawyer lobby (who gives Dems tons of campaign money) happy.

 

[Rover]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

What a sad, sad person you are if you think it's OK to insult entire groups of people simply because a few people made false statements based on bad information.

And I am not saying I want to do nothing. I am saying that doing nothing isn't as bad as doing something wrong. I want health care reformed, not ruined.

As for tort reform, I don't know who you're listening to but i don't know a single person who believes or claims that tort reform is some golden ticket to sure to solve all of health care's ills. But I also haven't heard a single good argument as to why tort reform shouldn't be a part of health care reform either. The only reason it isn't in there is because the Dems are making the trial lawyer lobby (who gives Dems tons of campaign money) happy.

I feel perfectly fine insulting large groups of people who participate in such idiocy. Anybody on Medicare screaming about keeping the govt out of health care is an idiot. Death panel preachers = idiots. There's no point in engaging these people. Sorta like debating someone who thinks Obama was born in Kenya. Really, its for their own good to just make fun of them instead.

Regarding Tort Reform, as that is the crux of the main GOP House plan with little else to expand coverage or bring down costs, then its easy to assume a "tort reform solves all" approach out of the minority party. Closer to home, you might want to confer with some of the righty posters (the Minnfan's of the world) who seem to be of the same mindset as their pals in Congress. As far as why it isn't in there, even though Obama publicly advocated its inclusion if it brought some Republicans along, is that the GOP never negotiated in good faith, outside of one senator from Maine.

MinnFan, you asked a question and I answered it. If you're still going to whine, I can't say I'm surprised. Why Cadillac taxes are included in the CBO estimate is that they have a $$$ impact, both in raising some revenue but more importantly in bringing down overusage costs. No kidding the CBO will score something like that. That's kinda their job...

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

You should invest in WellPoint, UnitedHealth Group, Cigna, Aetna, and Humana. they took in combined profits of $12.2 billion, up 56 percent over 2008. Their profits grew even as GDP decreased by 1 percent over this same period. Especially WellPoint they made $2.7 billion in profits in the most recent quarter alone.

Yeah, but what were their outlays? If they spent $5 billion to earn $2.7 billion, that's completely different than spending $100 billion to earn that $2.7 billion.

Being outraged at billions in profits is fine and dandy, but if they're only earning 2% on their money, that's not exactly outrageous.

So, give me the full picture, please.

 

[unofan]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

What a sad, sad person you are if you think it's OK to insult entire groups of people simply because a few people made false statements based on bad information.

The "keep gov't out of my medicare" group of idiots is made up of more than a few people. Likewise, anyone who doesn't see the logical disconnect of being both pro-Medicare and anti-single payer is an idiot. Until the GOP picks a stance that isn't a logical contradiction, I think Rover's correct in labelling them all idiots.

That said, so long as the Selfish Generation (tm) remains in power, I'm not expecting anything good from either side. The Selfish Generation has been screwing all future generations since they were born.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

That said, so long as the Selfish Generation (tm) remains in power, I'm not expecting anything good from either side. The Selfish Generation has been screwing all future generations since they were born.

I agree 100% with this assessment.

 

[moe24]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

I feel perfectly fine insulting large groups of people who participate in such idiocy. Anybody on Medicare screaming about keeping the govt out of health care is an idiot. Death panel preachers = idiots. There's no point in engaging these people. Sorta like debating someone who thinks Obama was born in Kenya. Really, its for their own good to just make fun of them instead.

Regarding Tort Reform, as that is the crux of the main GOP House plan with little else to expand coverage or bring down costs, then its easy to assume a "tort reform solves all" approach out of the minority party. Closer to home, you might want to confer with some of the righty posters (the Minnfan's of the world) who seem to be of the same mindset as their pals in Congress. As far as why it isn't in there, even though Obama publicly advocated its inclusion if it brought some Republicans along, is that the GOP never negotiated in good faith, outside of one senator from Maine.

1 - You're not insulting large groups that participate in idiocy, you're insulting the whole of the conservative movement and the GOP based on your retarded assumption that just because a handful of people say something that the entire group agrees with them. I really feel sorry for you being that filled with arrogance and hate.

2 - Why is someone on Medicare an idiot for speaking out against government involvement? Medicare is a colossal failure of a massive government bureaucracy. There's a reason senior citizens have to spend thousands of dollars on supplemental coverage to make up for what medicare doesn't cover and what they poorly cover. It's perfectly reasonable to not want the government to make a bad thing even worse with more government control and bureaucracy.

3 - You make a very poor assumption that there is a "tort reform solves all" approach out there simply because it is one of the more talked about issues. It's hardly the only issue out there.

4 - To claim the GOP hasn't negotiated in good faith is absurd. How can they negotiate in good faith when the Dems don't even allow them at the table? Closed door meetings and back room deals where the opposition party isn't even invited is hardly a negotiation.

 

[unofan]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

2 - Why is someone on Medicare an idiot for speaking out against government involvement? Medicare is a colossal failure of a massive government bureaucracy. There's a reason senior citizens have to spend thousands of dollars on supplemental coverage to make up for what medicare doesn't cover and what they poorly cover. It's perfectly reasonable to not want the government to make a bad thing even worse with more government control and bureaucracy.

That's not their argument, if it was, they'd be all for a medicare overhaul, perhaps even providing private solutions to it, because it's a government program.

Instead, they want the government to keep its hands off of medicare, even though it's a government program. (see the logical fallacy, there?)

The reality is it's because the baby boomers, aka the Selfish Generation (tm), are now hitting retirement and becoming medicare eligible. Who cares if it bankrupts future generations, they want their free healthcare. And god forbid any of those medicare dollars be used to pay for medical care for anyone else, especially those who, you know, are young enough to still contribute to society. Nope, they're perfectly happy having single payer health care for themselves but don't want to spend a dime on anyone else.

 

[moe24]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

The "keep gov't out of my medicare" group of idiots is made up of more than a few people. Likewise, anyone who doesn't see the logical disconnect of being both pro-Medicare and anti-single payer is an idiot.

I don't know anyone saying "keep government out of my medicare" but I am hearing a lot of "don't let the government make this even worse then it already is". There is a big difference.

As for the pro-medicare/anti-single payer disconnect, sure there are some people like that out there, but most are either pro both or anti both.

 

[moe24]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

That's not their argument, if it was, they'd be all for a medicare overhaul, perhaps even providing private solutions to it, because it's a government program.

Instead, they want the government to keep its hands off of medicare, even though it's a government program. (see the logical fallacy, there?)

Yes it is their argument, I hear it all the time. But I hardly ever hear what you are talking about (which I agree, and always have agreed, is a logical fallacy).

The reality is it's because the baby boomers, aka the Selfish Generation (tm), are now hitting retirement and becoming medicare eligible. Who cares if it bankrupts future generations, they want their free healthcare. And god forbid any of those medicare dollars be used to pay for medical care for anyone else, especially those who, you know, are young enough to still contribute to society. Nope, they're perfectly happy having single payer health care for themselves but don't want to spend a dime on anyone else.

This I completely agree with.

 

[ComoSeDiceHockey]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Yeah, but what were their outlays? If they spent $5 billion to earn $2.7 billion, that's completely different than spending $100 billion to earn that $2.7 billion.

Being outraged at billions in profits is fine and dandy, but if they're only earning 2% on their money, that's not exactly outrageous.

So, give me the full picture, please.

ROE Return on Equity it the more accurate way to measure health insurers profit margins and since they have almost no capital outlays, and therefore less risk they are phenomonaly profitable. As a percentage of the equity shareholders had in WellPoint, WellPoint’s profits in were 11.62 % in 2008. What capital they do spend is on some desks, chairs and computers to sit around and figure out ways to not pay for people's care when they get sick. That is how they increase their ROE. They add no value to anything, they produce nothing -they sole purpose is to screw people over, the more they screw people the more profitable they are.

 

[walrus]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

The reality is it's because the baby boomers, aka the Selfish Generation (tm), are now hitting retirement and becoming medicare eligible. Who cares if it bankrupts future generations, they want their free healthcare. And god forbid any of those medicare dollars be used to pay for medical care for anyone else, especially those who, you know, are young enough to still contribute to society. Nope, they're perfectly happy having single payer health care for themselves but don't want to spend a dime on anyone else.

Whats free about it? Haven't they been paying in for years?

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

ROE Return on Equity it the more accurate way to measure health insurers profit margins and since they have almost no capital outlays, and therefore less risk they are phenomonaly profitable. As a percentage of the equity shareholders had in WellPoint, WellPoint’s profits in were 11.62 % in 2008. What capital they do spend is on some desks, chairs and computers to sit around and figure out ways to not pay for people's care when they get sick. That is how they increase their ROE. They add no value to anything, they produce nothing -they sole purpose is to screw people over, the more they screw people the more profitable they are.

Do you even know how insurance companies make their money? Its not off of premiums.

 

[moe24]

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Re: CBO scores Dem bill - Trillion dollars in deficit reduction

Whats free about it? Haven't they been paying in for years?

True, but the point is that they want there's and they could care less about the consequences for the future. Besides, everyone is paying in, not just them.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Yeah, but what were their outlays? If they spent $5 billion to earn $2.7 billion, that's completely different than spending $100 billion to earn that $2.7 billion.

Being outraged at billions in profits is fine and dandy, but if they're only earning 2% on their money, that's not exactly outrageous.

So, give me the full picture, please.

You are so far off-base it isn't funny...
It doesn't play well if you say "profit margins at this company/industry have remained fairly static over the last 20 years as they have grown through acquisition or development of new products while they employ thousands of people and generate shareholder equity".

Instead, use quotes like "profits are up 300%" or "they make billions of dollars"...by use of these simple phrases you can incite consumer groups, produce great soundbites for politicians and mislead the public into thinking the company is gouging everyone.

For maximum impact, couple these phrases with "...on the backs of the working families" or "...from the middle class" and you have created a great combination that completely glosses over the true situation while leaving the impression that any company making lots of money must be doing something wrong.

Try these phrases at cocktail parties, political conventions or anytime you want to sway opinion with a phrase you know will be misinterpreted.

 

[moe24]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

ROE Return on Equity it the more accurate way to measure health insurers profit margins and since they have almost no capital outlays, and therefore less risk they are phenomonaly profitable. As a percentage of the equity shareholders had in WellPoint, WellPoint’s profits in were 11.62 % in 2008. What capital they do spend is on some desks, chairs and computers to sit around and figure out ways to not pay for people's care when they get sick. That is how they increase their ROE. They add no value to anything, they produce nothing -they sole purpose is to screw people over, the more they screw people the more profitable they are.

While I don't really want to side with insurance companies I do have to say this is an extremely narrow and biased view of insurance and how they make their money.