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Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

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Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Oh and since he is blocked and I have seen he has posted but obviously havent read it...Welcome to Cuba 2.0 solovsfett...feel free to leave if you dont like it :D

Did Rover steal your handle? You sound just like him
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

No, the primary reason for going to a single payer system is that it is inherently the best way to diversify the risk of an insurance pool. The more people in a given insurance pool, the more risk of a given negative outcome is spread. The largest pool is one where everyone is a member. Taken together, then, a pool with everyone in it has risk diversified the most.

The reason for government control of single payer is that a profit-motive and life/death decisions sometimes involve mutually exclusive outcomes. Consequently, where society's goal is to keep the most people alive no matter the cost, the profit motive should be removed.

That doesn't mean gov't single payer is perfect. It simply means it better meets societal goals than the market in the given instance.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Very few want to address costs. The government has shown that it is incapable of managing any large scale entitlement program in a fiscally responsible way. Such programs are destroying this country financially. It's nice to say the profit motive should be removed, but the country can't keep going deeper and deeper in debt without significant consequences. And despite what you want to believe, the Dem party wants a single payer government run health care system more for the control it would give them rather than any health benefits to the population. I'm not saying they don't want to see better health care, but I don't believe that is their primary motive. We're talking about politicians, or at least I am. They don't exactly have ethics or morality at the top of their list of motives, and that goes for both parties. I wouldn't even want to see a single payer system in the private sector. Monopolies are never good for controlling costs. I think single payer is a terrible option from a financial standpoint, regardless of it is privately run or government run; especially if it is government run given that they have no culture of profit motive, which means it is going to lose money big time.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Very few want to address costs. The government has shown that it is incapable of managing any large scale entitlement program in a fiscally responsible way. Such programs are destroying this country financially. It's nice to say the profit motive should be removed, but the country can't keep going deeper and deeper in debt without significant consequences. And despite what you want to believe, the Dem party wants a single payer government run health care system more for the control it would give them rather than any health benefits to the population. I'm not saying they don't want to see better health care, but I don't believe that is their primary motive. We're talking about politicians, or at least I am. They don't exactly have ethics or morality at the top of their list of motives, and that goes for both parties. I wouldn't even want to see a single payer system in the private sector. Monopolies are never good for controlling costs. I think single payer is a terrible option from a financial standpoint, regardless of it is privately run or government run; especially if it is government run given that they have no culture of profit motive, which means it is going to lose money big time.
This.

You make way too much sense! Where'd you come from? There are far too few people that think big picture like this.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Did Rover steal your handle? You sound just like him

Dude...that is just friggin mean. ;)

I dont see any "knuckledraggers" in my post, I just called out one guy who has to tell us everytime he sees something he doesnt like about the evils of Cuba and how that makes him an expert in how this country is becoming a Maoist Regime so awesome it would make Che blush. :)

I think Rover is batchit crazy, and he ranks up there with Nate91b on my list of people who I want anything to do with :p I would rather UND won the National Title than be anything like Rover :eek:
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

OK, so this is a synopsis of what is going to be levied on the insurance companies:

* Lifetime limits on benefits and restrictive annual limits will be prohibited.
* Insurers will be barred from imposing exclusions on children with pre-existing conditions.
* Insurers can no longer refuse to sell or renew policies because of an individual's health status. Health plans can no longer exclude coverage for pre-existing conditions. Insurers can't charge higher rates because of heath status, gender or other factors.
* Health plans will be prohibited from imposing annual limits on coverage.
* An annual health insurance provider fee will be Imposed across the health insurance sector according to insurers' market share to companies whose total premiums exceed $25 million.

So how does an insurance company remain viable when they aren't allowed to mitigate and distribute risk amongst their pools of insureds? It's not possible. What is next, eliminating exclusions, qualifications and coverage limits for auto insurance? Life insurance? Can someone please explain this to me? And then, after the insurers have been battered by the destruction of their actuarial tables, the government is going to levy an undisclosed tax on them? Maybe I'm not seeing the alternative, but all I'm seeing is hundreds of thousands of lost jobs across the country due to the withdrawing of insurance companies from the health insurance sector.

Don't worry, these billions in new costs will be paid for by the millions in new insurance premiums that previously uninsured people will pay....much of which will be subsidized by the federal government. Awesome plan.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

There are many on the left (myself included) who would prefer a single-payer system (which, of course, does not mean the elimination of the private sector in medicine), but you have the causality all wrong.

The reason for doing so is because the dynamics of the market run counter to our societal goals when it comes to health care. What's left is an incredibly inefficient and unsustainable for-profit system that achieves incredibly poor outcomes for how much money is spent.

Over 60% of American society is opposed to this health care bill. Over 70% doesn't want their insurance coverage to change. I can virtually guarantee that over 95% of Americans don't want their premiums to go up. 100% of rational Americans (Rover & rufus not qualifying) don't want the quality or quantity of health care to decrease.

Funny, this doesn't seem like one of our "societal goals" to me. Actually, the term "societal goal" kind of reminds me of how "social justice" is just another term for "redistribution of wealth". Liberal buzzwords that cover for the underlying intent.

Bottom line is that there could've been a better health care reform bill. Instead, we got an anti-business P.O.S. health insurance destruction bill that will drive costs higher and drive down the quality and quantity of health care.

Republicans never had the chance to help FORM this bill, only to add to it--not unlike being offered a sh*t sandwich with your choice of toppings. No matter what you might put on it, it doesn't change the fact that you're going to eat a sh*t sandwich.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

No, the primary reason for going to a single payer system is that it is inherently the best way to diversify the risk of an insurance pool. The more people in a given insurance pool, the more risk of a given negative outcome is spread. The largest pool is one where everyone is a member. Taken together, then, a pool with everyone in it has risk diversified the most.

The reason for government control of single payer is that a profit-motive and life/death decisions sometimes involve mutually exclusive outcomes. Consequently, where society's goal is to keep the most people alive no matter the cost, the profit motive should be removed.

That doesn't mean gov't single payer is perfect. It simply means it better meets societal goals than the market in the given instance.

Insurance companies pool people together to distiguish differences between insureds and charge them accordingly--not everyone is in the same "pool". But we'll go with your one-pool single payer system. Who is paying in? Everyone? Equally? If we're all entitled to the same health care, will it be the same premium for everyone? Oh, that's right, it's another progressive tax brought to us by progressively-spending progressives. :rolleyes:

What is next.......international single-payer systems? Following your line of thinking, that would be the next logical step to make things "diversified the most". Then we join up with China--because everyone deserves the same health care--and.......oh boy......billions of people......not sustainable, is it? Especially when no one has bothered to address COST and INCREASED AVAILABILITY while giving away health care to the masses via the current health reform bill, a single-payer system or any other government health care directive.

See, the problem with a single-payer system is that like every other government program there is no motivation to keep costs low or to eliminate waste, fraud or abuse--especially when it's easier to raise taxes on the few to placate (and get votes from) the masses. The federal debt isn't going away, and a program like this threatens to explode within a decade--bringing the entire debt crashing down on our country.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

No, the primary reason for going to a single payer system is that it is inherently the best way to diversify the risk of an insurance pool. The more people in a given insurance pool, the more risk of a given negative outcome is spread. The largest pool is one where everyone is a member. Taken together, then, a pool with everyone in it has risk diversified the most.

The reason for government control of single payer is that a profit-motive and life/death decisions sometimes involve mutually exclusive outcomes. Consequently, where society's goal is to keep the most people alive no matter the cost, the profit motive should be removed.

That doesn't mean gov't single payer is perfect. It simply means it better meets societal goals than the market in the given instance.

I think its folly to assume that there won't be a cost motive in single payer... if you think people don't like paying to foot the current bill good luck with single payer. That's why you have the setups in place for "proper care" like no mammograms for those under 50... or was it over 50... I forget. The biggest problem... with single payer is a supply shortage and a money shortage. We won't have enough staff nor could we get some without lowering our standards and opening the international floodgates but people just don't want to foot the cost.

In this way government is the ultimate milligram experiment.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

No you don't. You can forego buying an automobile and never have to buy insurance.

Like I've said numerous times, if we were willing to let those without insurance die, I'd be all for not mandating insurance on the unwilling. But since we as a society will still treat everyone at an ER, then we can mandate they pay for it.

Nice blinders. First....don't get sick - all that preventative crap peeps should do on their own without the government telling them they need to get on a treadmill and stop "biggie" sizing. That's easier to do than "don't buy an automobile", considering most people need *that* type of transportation to live their lives and, you know, work to feed the Feds more taxes to pay for all these new entitlements.

Since when do we treat "everyone" at an ER? I'd be willing to bet less than 1 or 2 percent of this board's members don't go to an ER for treatment.

Good Lord, you put that on a tee.

I'm surprised you're the only one who bit. :D

Of course, there's no need for auto insurance if you don't own a car. You don't need homeowner's insurance if you don't own a home (though renter's insurance is a good idea). You can control these things - but that's not what health care is like.

No, same thing. Take the car away and substitute a Segway or your pedal bike of choice - you run over a pedestrian on a sidewalk and you're in the same boat. It's about liability.


Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Oh and since he is blocked and I have seen he has posted but obviously havent read it...Welcome to Cuba 2.0 solovsfett...feel free to leave if you dont like it :D

Only intolerant sissy boys block.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Very few want to address costs. The government has shown that it is incapable of managing any large scale entitlement program in a fiscally responsible way. Such programs are destroying this country financially. It's nice to say the profit motive should be removed, but the country can't keep going deeper and deeper in debt without significant consequences. And despite what you want to believe, the Dem party wants a single payer government run health care system more for the control it would give them rather than any health benefits to the population. I'm not saying they don't want to see better health care, but I don't believe that is their primary motive. We're talking about politicians, or at least I am. They don't exactly have ethics or morality at the top of their list of motives, and that goes for both parties. I wouldn't even want to see a single payer system in the private sector. Monopolies are never good for controlling costs. I think single payer is a terrible option from a financial standpoint, regardless of it is privately run or government run; especially if it is government run given that they have no culture of profit motive, which means it is going to lose money big time.


What would you do to reduce costs? This plan has a key cost-reduction provision - the 'cadillac' tax.

Your talk about monopolies is vapid - do you have any evidence to support that claim in the field of health care? Because international and American experience with single payer systems shows the exact opposite of what you claim - the single payer systems have lower costs, much lower overheads, and achieve the same or better health outcomes.

Over 60% of American society is opposed to this health care bill. Over 70% doesn't want their insurance coverage to change. I can virtually guarantee that over 95% of Americans don't want their premiums to go up. 100% of rational Americans (Rover & rufus not qualifying) don't want the quality or quantity of health care to decrease.

So what? Most people want to have their cake and eat it, too. Doesn't mean such a thing is possible.

Funny, this doesn't seem like one of our "societal goals" to me. Actually, the term "societal goal" kind of reminds me of how "social justice" is just another term for "redistribution of wealth". Liberal buzzwords that cover for the underlying intent.

What is that underlying intent? My intent is to cover everyone and put us on a more sustainable financial path. These are not mutually exclusive - they are in fact complimentary.

Bottom line is that there could've been a better health care reform bill. Instead, we got an anti-business P.O.S. health insurance destruction bill that will drive costs higher and drive down the quality and quantity of health care.

What would that bill look like? And what do you base your doomsday predictions on? To paraphrase David Frum, how do you negotiate with the guys that claim you'll kill grandma?

For all the fear the opponents have put out there, how would a rational criticism ever shine through? It's the boy who cried wolf.

Republicans never had the chance to help FORM this bill, only to add to it--not unlike being offered a sh*t sandwich with your choice of toppings. No matter what you might put on it, it doesn't change the fact that you're going to eat a sh*t sandwich.

Elections have consequences. You could have won back in November, and then you can take the lead on legislation. But the Republicans lost, and had the option to either obstruct or to help govern. They chose the former.

R's have no one to blame but themselves.
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Elections have consequences. You could have won back in November, and then you can take the lead on legislation. But the Republicans lost, and had the option to either obstruct or to help govern. They chose the former.

R's have no one to blame but themselves.
They won back in 2000. What did they do with it? Nothing? Pretty much. They got some cool war, and some even cooler tax cuts. and some prescription drugs, and some legality to spy on grandma, and some No Child L(Gets) B(Ahead).

Can you blame them for being upset now? They already passed socialism. The Democrats didn't need to take it this far. Oh, what's that? Mitt Romney ran on passing this bill and almost got the GOP nomination? What?
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Elections have consequences.

The more you say this the more I'm going to start forming an anti-Fenty belief just to foster chaos in the district.

BTW, "elections have consequences" doesn't translate to "we're going to do something awful because you couldn't anticipate how dumb we'd be".
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

No I havent...congrats want a cookie. To be honest I dont even remember what the point was nor do I care so please dont rehash it. Just chalk it up as a victory for you and let it go. You are the winner of the internet argument...that places you somewhere right around making the Final Four in the newest NCAA postseason tourny. ;)

I am going to back to my watching you all blow your brains out because you think we all just became Socialists. :)

Oh and since he is blocked and I have seen he has posted but obviously havent read it...Welcome to Cuba 2.0 solovsfett...feel free to leave if you dont like it :D

it's pretty funny that you "block" me, yet still refer to my posts, and cuba. I know I hit home with you with the fact that my roots give me a different point of view on this. and it shows in your posts.

btw you never answered as to your definition of the dreaded "s" word is, and why you know that obama is not a "s"-word.

I'll leave it at this. If you listen to Obama (start at least with his WBEZ interview in 01), and consider then his current plan will bankrupt or drive off private insurance, thereby giving him an angle to push through the single-payer....that combined with the louder chorus of madates on the american public, to buy health insurance at risk of fines, to demand we eat x but not y, to tax our lifestyles so we're living "greener", to ensure we drive smaller vehicles we don't want, to take over car companies, banks, student loans, it becomes pretty clear (to me at least) that this guy is a socialist. not to mention this worst and most egregious notion: Obama is perhaps the most anti-free speech politician in the history of the country. always belittling common people (and do you recall ever a U.S. president singling out individuals or groups of citizens in the way this guy does?). Always "the discussion is over" when there's been NO discussion, rather dictation from the top. even going so far as to kick reporters off his plane who happened to work for 3 newspapers that did not endorse him. he can't take criticism, and he's moving as hard as he can to shut it down. it's scary stuff.

edit - and today the NYT came out and stated the healthcare bill is a redistribution of wealth. again going back to WBEZ, that has been his goal all along.

this is an ideology antithetical to this countries founding and core principals (as founded) and the constitution.



and as a brief aside for those who keep bringing up Bush...yeah, we get it. Bush was an awful president. he really was. however let's get to reality with money. Obama has quadrupled Bush's deficits in 1 year. that means it would have taken Bush another 24 YEARS to get our country to the point where we lose or are about to lose our AAA rating. just sayin.
 
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Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.


According to your great poll, smart guy, only 4% of respondents thought this bill "makes the most important changes needed in the nation's health care system."

That's not a good sign.

"Respondents" could be awfully skewed given the mood (p*ssed) of Americans prior to this bill. Coupled with the +/-4% margin, and I'd say this poll isn't too accurate. But thanks for playing.:p
 
Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

What would you do to reduce costs? This plan has a key cost-reduction provision - the 'cadillac' tax.

Your talk about monopolies is vapid - do you have any evidence to support that claim in the field of health care? Because international and American experience with single payer systems shows the exact opposite of what you claim - the single payer systems have lower costs, much lower overheads, and achieve the same or better health outcomes.

Waiting lines for needed health care is "better"? Drastically higher taxes is "better"? I beg to differ. Medicare is the American equivalent of a single-payer system. It has driven prices higher by only paying (on average) 60% of the cost of treatment. And apparently Cadillac health care taxes only apply if you're non-union.....how's that for fair and equal? Apparently their wealth isn't redistributable.........

So what? Most people want to have their cake and eat it, too. Doesn't mean such a thing is possible.

Sooooo, this is a representative republic. Disregarding the will of the people pretty much goes against everything this country stands for. Unless you've got a different U.S. Constitution I haven't read yet......

What is that underlying intent? My intent is to cover everyone and put us on a more sustainable financial path. These are not mutually exclusive - they are in fact complimentary.

The underlying intent would be to severely damage the health insurance industry that provides top-notch care to the VAST majority of Americans. The intent of this bill is an end-game single-payer system--which I know you and Obama are in favor of--but is simply unsustainable when not curtailing costs or expanding availability. It's Econ 101, blockski. I know you're familiar.

What would that bill look like? And what do you base your doomsday predictions on? To paraphrase David Frum, how do you negotiate with the guys that claim you'll kill grandma?

So glad you asked. My bill would enact tort reform, elimination of unions from health care settings (Should they be able to leverage the "right" of health care against higher wages/costs?), dollar-for-dollar tax credits/deductions for either purchasing (insureds) or providing (employers) health insurance coverage, mandatory phys ed for school-age children (Funny, the libs are OK with elective phys ed, but want everyone to exercise?), expanded health education in schools, state-run pools to cover the pre-existing conditions of those who purchase health insurance, eliminating the ability to discharge medical bills during bankruptcy, institution of more high-deductible insurance plans to cover catastrophic injuries, allow hospitals tax credits/writeoffs for emergency ER care to uninsureds......just to name a few.

My doomsday predictions are based on the nature of the insurance industry and basic economics. Every insurance-based industry is run using actuaries. They base the insurance premium calculations on the likelihood of a claim being submitted by an insured. The likelihood is calculated using a number of risk-based variables: age, tobacco use, gender, previous treatments, previous claims filed, etc. In eliminating the use of these variables, there is no way of knowing how much to charge insureds in any given insurance pool. Given that this bill does not allow for limitations on annual/lifetime insurance coverage, pre-existing conditions, patient health history or any other variable, coupled with the fact that it will be illegal to raise premiums to account for additional claims across a given pool, and you can bet your arse that insurance companies will go under.

And again, the bill that has been passed does not do anything about cost or expanded health care availability. So Econ 101 says that more people using the same amount of services will either increase the cost of those services or decrease the quality of those services--or both. A single-payer system will only exacerbate the problem, because as we both know government entities make things much, much more expensive.

As for negotiating, the Dems NEVER gave the Republicans a chance to form the bill--they only gave them a chance to add some things to something that was (and is) completely unacceptable to themselves and the American people.


For all the fear the opponents have put out there, how would a rational criticism ever shine through? It's the boy who cried wolf.

On this we agree. However, I'd expect our elected leaders to be able to put the rhetoric and bullsh*t aside and talk honestly about the issue at hand.

Of course, that's asking an AWFUL lot, especially from some of the drama queens and hardheads in Congress.

Elections have consequences. You could have won back in November, and then you can take the lead on legislation. But the Republicans lost, and had the option to either obstruct or to help govern. They chose the former.

R's have no one to blame but themselves.

Again, no they didn't. They were never at the table during the entire piecing together of this bill--hell, the bill was only online for 36 hours before it was passed (as opposed to the 72 hours that the Dems promised). They were invited in at the very end as what appears to be a publicity stunt--so they can say that they tried for bi-partisanship.

But you are right: Elections have consequences. The Dems will learn that like the Repubs did in '06 and '08.
 
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