Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

How can you say it's clear? The two largest pieces of domestic legislation passed by a Republican controlled White House and Congress were socialist.

So, exactly how clear are we? Or, are you in denial like most conservatives since this bill passed? I bet you are.

To be fair to the GOP, the Patriot Act wasn't socialist, it was just garden variety police state. It could as easily be interpreted as the apotheosis of the far right as the far left.

Speaking of which, John Stewart destroyed Glen Beck last night. If you've never had the misfortune of seeing the latter's show, it will make no sense at all. If you have, it's the definitive parody, the way Colbert forever exposed, pwned and dismissed O'Reilly.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

To be fair to the GOP, the Patriot Act wasn't socialist, it was just garden variety police state. It could as easily be interpreted as the apotheosis of the far right as the far left.

Speaking of which, John Stewart destroyed Glen Beck last night. If you've never had the misfortune of seeing the latter's show, it will make no sense at all. If you have, it's the definitive parody, the way Colbert forever exposed, pwned and dismissed O'Reilly.

I wasn't even referring to the Patriot Act. I fixed my post to say "two of the largest".

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

I'm trying to explain to my insurance guy that I'm not buying car insurance unless I get in a wreck, or homeowners unless my house catches fire. It wouldn't be fair to deny me for a preexisting condition, right? He just doesn't understand this brave new world we live in.

I'll just go out and say it - nobody gives a **** about the insurance people.

They do care about healthcare, though. And our basic moral understanding of what we should expect from society (despite our capitalist leanings) runs directly counter to how insurance operates.

That's the thing - even the most virulent opposition from Republicans never suggested that they'd take out the ban on dropping people due to pre-existing conditions.

For a nice, conceptual primer on healthcare economics, read Paul Krugman:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/why-markets-cant-cure-healthcare/

There are two strongly distinctive aspects of health care. One is that you don’t know when or whether you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive. The big bucks are in triple coronary bypass surgery, not routine visits to the doctor’s office; and very, very few people can afford to pay major medical costs out of pocket.

This tells you right away that health care can’t be sold like bread. It must be largely paid for by some kind of insurance. And this in turn means that someone other than the patient ends up making decisions about what to buy. Consumer choice is nonsense when it comes to health care. And you can’t just trust insurance companies either — they’re not in business for their health, or yours.

This problem is made worse by the fact that actually paying for your health care is a loss from an insurers’ point of view — they actually refer to it as “medical costs.” This means both that insurers try to deny as many claims as possible, and that they try to avoid covering people who are actually likely to need care. Both of these strategies use a lot of resources, which is why private insurance has much higher administrative costs than single-payer systems. And since there’s a widespread sense that our fellow citizens should get the care we need — not everyone agrees, but most do — this means that private insurance basically spends a lot of money on socially destructive activities.

So, we need some sort of insurance - either from the private sector or from government (as with Medicare - where your taxes are your premiums, essentially). Except that the natural actions of the insurance market are morally reprehensible in many cases - counter-intuitive at best - and people don't like them. That's why the most vocal critics never opposed the per-existing condition ban.

Krugman continues:

The second thing about health care is that it’s complicated, and you can’t rely on experience or comparison shopping. (“I hear they’ve got a real deal on stents over at St. Mary’s!”) That’s why doctors are supposed to follow an ethical code, why we expect more from them than from bakers or grocery store owners.

You could rely on a health maintenance organization to make the hard choices and do the cost management, and to some extent we do. But HMOs have been highly limited in their ability to achieve cost-effectiveness because people don’t trust them — they’re profit-making institutions, and your treatment is their cost.

Between those two factors, health care just doesn’t work as a standard market story.

Conservatives and libertarians love to talk up the power of markets, but never seem to want to address their obvious failings. I hear comments like geezers about insurance and sit back in amazement at the defense of the abstract principle above all else - despite the obvious social and economic failings.

Market failure is a key part of market economics, people.

Krugman concludes:

All of this doesn’t necessarily mean that socialized medicine, or even single-payer, is the only way to go. There are a number of successful health-care systems, at least as measured by pretty good care much cheaper than here, and they are quite different from each other. There are, however, no examples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn’t work. And people who say that the market is the answer are flying in the face of both theory and overwhelming evidence.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

I wasn't even referring to the Patriot Act. I fixed my post to say "two of the largest".

The Big Pharm giveaway and... what?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

The Big Pharm giveaway and... what?

NCLB

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

And don't forget, some states require minimum coverage for auto insurance as well.

Only liability, not comprehensive.

But this goes back to the whole debate about why health insurance is a misnomer.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Speaking of which, John Stewart destroyed Glen Beck last night. If you've never had the misfortune of seeing the latter's show, it will make no sense at all. If you have, it's the definitive parody, the way Colbert forever exposed, pwned and dismissed O'Reilly.

Colbert actually worked Beck pretty good that same night. (I think it was actually last Thursday or Friday) Both videos are in the Youtube thread. They are well worth the 20+ minutes it takes to watch them both.

Any doubt that Glenn Beck might be bat **** crazy is officially out the window. Good Lord.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

NCLB

That wasn't socialist because it wasn't funded.

 

[rufus]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Is the country still here? I'm not sure, will somebody check?

And nice to see how that stock market's tanking.

Although you can bet that the minute it has a big loss, even if it's a week or even a month from now, Patman and the rest of the dead enders will be on here blaming it on the healthcare bill.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

That wasn't socialist because it wasn't funded.

Sure it was. They just shoved it all down the chain to the cities. Unfunded mandates are so wonderful for our communities. It gives us a sense of living in a free society.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Is the country still here? I'm not sure, will somebody check?

And nice to see how that stock market's tanking.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/tomtoles/2010/03/health-care_horrors.html

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

With the passage of this bill we can no longer consider this a capitalistic country. State and Federal spending already accounts for 43% of GDP. With the gov't now implicitly controlling the other half of healthcare they did not before we are over the 50% mark.

Instead of passing a bill to help control costs allowing more people to buy insurance congress has simply passed those costs on to other taxpayers. This bill takes another step away from personal responsibility.

I think that as long as this bill exists we will never see unemployment below 9% again. I hope I am wrong about this, but one only has to look at Europe to see what massive gov't and entitlements can do to a country.

To those who believe the CBO numbers, will you jump on the bandwagon to repeal this bill if/when it goes over-budget and starts adding to the deficit?

In the end this has been about power and control. Give everyone a gov't goodie and they will keep asking for more. We certainly have come a long way from a gov't thats primary function was to protect freedom; not re-distribute it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

I'm trying to explain to my insurance guy that I'm not buying car insurance unless I get in a wreck, or homeowners unless my house catches fire. It wouldn't be fair to deny me for a preexisting condition, right? He just doesn't understand this brave new world we live in.

Stop talking common sense. The feds know what's best for you and how you should spend your money. Thank them and submit to them before they fine or imprison you.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Someone wake me from my slumber when tDoo stops blaming the GOP. Whatever happened to Clinton?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Someone wake me from my slumber when tDoo stops blaming the GOP. Whatever happened to Clinton?

Let him sleep till he dies. He can't read cause I haven't blamed anyone for anything.

All I've done is draw comparisons. If you think that's blame then perhaps you should check your persecution complex.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Let him sleep till he dies. He can't read cause I haven't blamed anyone for anything.

All I've done is draw comparisons. If you think that's blame then perhaps you should check your persecution complex.

Well, that's not very nice.

....and you truly think you haven't blamed anyone for anything?

Hmmm....

They just shoved it all down the chain to the cities.

How can you say it's clear? Two of the largest pieces of domestic legislation passed by a Republican controlled White House and Congress were socialist.

So, exactly how clear are we? Or, are you in denial like most conservatives since this bill passed? I bet you are.

So, just in these two posts, you blame the GOP for:

1) Shoving NCLB down the chain to the cities.
2) Passing socialist legislation.
3) Passing NCLB and another unknown piece of legislation with no Democratic support.

You're just a bitter, mean-spirited man.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

Well, that's not very nice.

....and you truly think you haven't blamed anyone for anything?

Hmmm....





So, just in these two posts, you blame the GOP for:

1) Shoving NCLB down the chain to the cities.
2) Passing socialist legislation.
3) Passing NCLB and another unknown piece of legislation with no Democratic support.

You're just a bitter, mean-spirited man.

So in your world facts = blame. Like I said, check your persecution complex. You, Rush, and Glenn Beck all exist in the same fantasy world.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

So in your world facts = blame. Like I said, check your persecution complex. You, Rush, and Glenn Beck all exist in the same fantasy world.

Persecution? Please don't confuse my political leanings with you getting beaten with the Swifter at the end of each day by Mrs. tDoo.

..and don't blame me if Beck and Rush read this board and take my posts to heart.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

And the bill requires people to covered to protect the insurer, precisely to avoid the problem.

But other than being completely wrong, good point.

Good to have you back, Kepler. Now the way I understood this point from an NPR story is that you will be fined if you don't pay up, but that they also put in language stating that nobody can be forced by legal action to pay the fine. The only recourse of the IRS is to harass you on the phone, etc. Is this incorrect? If it's unenforceable, it's pointless.

Speaking of which, John Stewart destroyed Glen Beck last night. If you've never had the misfortune of seeing the latter's show, it will make no sense at all. If you have, it's the definitive parody, the way Colbert forever exposed, pwned and dismissed O'Reilly.

I don't watch any of these people, but I don't think any media person can be "pwned" by somebody with 1/10th the audience... It's like you pitching against your nephew's t-ball team and claiming to "pwned" Justin Verlander because he only struck out 11. (probably) makes Colbert look jealous more than anything... why can't we all just ignore these idiots of partisan media?

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama 10: Rahm it through.....even in the shower.

OK, so this is a synopsis of what is going to be levied on the insurance companies:

* Lifetime limits on benefits and restrictive annual limits will be prohibited.
* Insurers will be barred from imposing exclusions on children with pre-existing conditions.
* Insurers can no longer refuse to sell or renew policies because of an individual's health status. Health plans can no longer exclude coverage for pre-existing conditions. Insurers can't charge higher rates because of heath status, gender or other factors.
* Health plans will be prohibited from imposing annual limits on coverage.
* An annual health insurance provider fee will be Imposed across the health insurance sector according to insurers' market share to companies whose total premiums exceed $25 million.

So how does an insurance company remain viable when they aren't allowed to mitigate and distribute risk amongst their pools of insureds? It's not possible. What is next, eliminating exclusions, qualifications and coverage limits for auto insurance? Life insurance? Can someone please explain this to me? And then, after the insurers have been battered by the destruction of their actuarial tables, the government is going to levy an undisclosed tax on them? Maybe I'm not seeing the alternative, but all I'm seeing is hundreds of thousands of lost jobs across the country due to the withdrawing of insurance companies from the health insurance sector.