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Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

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Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Would it? It's immediate sentencing reform. Either the crazy disproportionate sentences minorities receive go down or white and/or rich sentencing never sees a Stanford case again.
We have a problem with sentencing in this country. First, we have way too many people incarcerated, and second, what we have chosen to incarcerate people for and the time for which they are incarcerated has disproportionately affected minorities.

Here is my personal opinion about where we went wrong.

It used to be that we basically relied on the judge to make the correct sentencing decision. He, or she, was the person who listened to the evidence, heard the defendant confess or testify or respond to the guilty verdict, heard the arguments of counsel, read the law and handed down the sentence.

It wasn't a perfect system. We do have a few racist judges. You would see some inconsistencies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction with respect to a sentence imposed. But in my opinion it generally worked.

But, as with everything in this country, someone became aggrieved by their case, and so laws were changed. "Sentencing guidelines" were created and judges were basically told you do not deviate from these unless extreme circumstances exist. We started doing massive pre-sentence investigations in which people in the incarceration system come up with their own recommendation for what the sentence should be.

The effect has been to basically tie the hands of judges when it comes to sentencing. We could have a laptop do it for us. As a result, we've taken away both the need and obligation on the part of judges to truly think about what to sentence. Instead, they go the safe route and stay within the guidelines and sentence in accordance with the pre-sentence report and clock out at the end of the day.

If I'm not mistaken, in the Stanford case the pre-sentence report basically said send this kid away for something like 6 months to a year. The judge just followed that, and is now paying the price, possibly.

I say take sentencing out of the hands of the untrained people who didn't see and hear the defendant and didn't hear the evidence, and put it back in the hands of judges.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

If I'm not mistaken, in the Stanford case the pre-sentence report basically said send this kid away for something like 6 months to a year. The judge just followed that, and is now paying the price, possibly.

I say take sentencing out of the hands of the untrained people who didn't see and hear the defendant and didn't hear the evidence, and put it back in the hands of judges.

That's interesting. I had no idea.

Regarding the concept of a PSIR, I had very little knowledge of how these were even written. Shows how much I understand the sentencing phase of criminal proceedings.

Thanks for the info
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

We have a problem with sentencing in this country. First, we have way too many people incarcerated, and second, what we have chosen to incarcerate people for and the time for which they are incarcerated has disproportionately affected minorities.

Here is my personal opinion about where we went wrong.

It used to be that we basically relied on the judge to make the correct sentencing decision. He, or she, was the person who listened to the evidence, heard the defendant confess or testify or respond to the guilty verdict, heard the arguments of counsel, read the law and handed down the sentence.

It wasn't a perfect system. We do have a few racist judges. You would see some inconsistencies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction with respect to a sentence imposed. But in my opinion it generally worked.

But, as with everything in this country, someone became aggrieved by their case, and so laws were changed. "Sentencing guidelines" were created and judges were basically told you do not deviate from these unless extreme circumstances exist. We started doing massive pre-sentence investigations in which people in the incarceration system come up with their own recommendation for what the sentence should be.

The effect has been to basically tie the hands of judges when it comes to sentencing. We could have a laptop do it for us. As a result, we've taken away both the need and obligation on the part of judges to truly think about what to sentence. Instead, they go the safe route and stay within the guidelines and sentence in accordance with the pre-sentence report and clock out at the end of the day.

If I'm not mistaken, in the Stanford case the pre-sentence report basically said send this kid away for something like 6 months to a year. The judge just followed that, and is now paying the price, possibly.

I say take sentencing out of the hands of the untrained people who didn't see and hear the defendant and didn't hear the evidence, and put it back in the hands of judges.

If that's what you want, we then go to mandatory minimums. Some of which are evidently lobbied by the prison-industrial complex. That's working REAL well, especially for things that are victimless and non-violent. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Right. But if person A committed a rape and person B committed rape under similar circumstances and with a similar rap sheet, person A and B should receive the same sentences.

I think the key is, there needs to be better sentencing guidelines. They need to better defined, regardless of what your background or race or sex or whatever is.
 
I think the key is, there needs to be better sentencing guidelines. They need to better defined, regardless of what your background or race or sex or whatever is.

Disagree. The federal sentencing guidelines lead to horrendous outcomes. Zero tolerance rules by school boards lead to first graders getting expelled because they brought pointed scissors instead of rounded ones. I don't think the states need to go down that route en masse and continue that same series of mistakes.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Disagree. The federal sentencing guidelines lead to horrendous outcomes. Zero tolerance rules by school boards lead to first graders getting expelled because they brought pointed scissors instead of rounded ones. I don't think the states need to go down that route en masse and continue that same series of mistakes.

Dang. We agree on something. ;)
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Disagree. The federal sentencing guidelines lead to horrendous outcomes. Zero tolerance rules by school boards lead to first graders getting expelled because they brought pointed scissors instead of rounded ones. I don't think the states need to go down that route en masse and continue that same series of mistakes.

Ok, I see that point.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

At the same time, people need to do time for their crimes. In my local rag, I see so many people busted for stuff, who get fined or jail time, with most if not all that fine or jail time suspended, and then see guys get busted for breaking into cars, or whatever, who have rap sheets a mile long, but had suspended sentences and fines in their previous histories.

If there's no punishment for breaking the law, then people are just gonna keep doing it.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Shouldnt you be applauding them for standing up for their beliefs as a small business? I was told they had rights...

Or is hypocrisy cool when you are on the "good" side ;)

You can have an opinion unless whatever the current majority is, disagrees with you.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

You can have an opinion unless whatever the current majority is, disagrees with you.

Oh stop it. You're smarter than this.

This was a calculated move to get free press, and drum up attention from Trumpeters and Berniebots alike. Looks like it worked. Whoop de freakin' do. Just like the pizza joint in Indiana, it's hullabaloo over nothing, and the overreaction will be spectacular. Besides which, I doubt your average Trump voter is paying $5 for a cup of fancy coffee from a well-known bastion of liberals, the artsy/pretentious local coffee joint. ;)
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Oh stop it. You're smarter than this.

This was a calculated move to get free press, and drum up attention from Trumpeters and Berniebots alike. Looks like it worked. Whoop de freakin' do. Just like the pizza joint in Indiana, it's hullabaloo over nothing, and the overreaction will be spectacular. Besides which, I doubt your average Trump voter is paying $5 for a cup of fancy coffee from a well-known bastion of liberals, the artsy/pretentious local coffee joint. ;)

I'm commenting on more than this specific story. This has been a trend for some time now (see: safe spaces at colleges). Free speech, unless you disagree with me. It's a horrible trend.
 
Shouldnt you be applauding them for standing up for their beliefs as a small business? I was told they had rights...

Or is hypocrisy cool when you are on the "good" side ;)
They do. Being an imbecile is not yet a protected class. I see no issue with Urban Bean's decision.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

The Stanford scumbag probably should have got more than 6 months, but for every rich privileged defendant that seemingly gets off light because they're connected, are there not judges that would be equally inclined to throw the book at a defendant because they're annoyed that someone in that position is trying to use money, power and influence to get off lightly? It's an imperfect system but any attempts to make change should be made very carefully.
 
Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I'm commenting on more than this specific story. This has been a trend for some time now (see: safe spaces at colleges). Free speech, unless you disagree with me. It's a horrible trend.

Except that isnt what is going on here. They arent saying you cant vote for Trump or support him, they are saying if you do so please dont come to their coffee shop. They arent limiting anyones speech except within their store which, as a private business is perfectly legal and infringes on no one. (Trump supporters dont need to go there to get coffee) Free speech is limited on all the time, look at all the things you cant say on this board for example...

And before some Right Wingers head explodes, yes this is true of the cake shops that refuse to do gay weddings. They can make that choice all they want to as long as they arent actually stopping gays from marrying. People have a right to react accordingly though which they did by often boycotting said stores. Trump supporters can do the same.

Anyways this is a non-story...no Trump supporter is going to Uptown to get coffee at Urban Bean. I used to go there all the time when I lived in Uptown and that place has a pretty obvious clientele. You all got baited and fell for it hook, line and sinker :D
 
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Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

The Stanford scumbag probably should have got more than 6 months, but for every rich privileged defendant that seemingly gets off light because they're connected, are there not judges that would be equally inclined to throw the book at a defendant because they're annoyed that someone in that position is trying to use money, power and influence to get off lightly? It's an imperfect system but any attempts to make change should be made very carefully.

They arent allowed to "throw the book at them" in most cases (sentencing guidelines and all so I would say in reality the answer to that is no. They probably want to but unless they have priors they can only punish so much...
 
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