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Nice Planet © 2009

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Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

And now you know why many people hate politics and religion. * the black and white. Yay for shades of gray. * you all.
 
Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Foxton said:
In a round about stretch of a way I'm actually arguing against discriminating against a religion. (Islam)
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And your prejudices kicked into overdrive, because nobody (including me) is arguing in favor of discriminating against Islam. Protecting ourselves from the extremists who adhere to that faith is a different, more subtle matter. But hey, when your smearing and bloviating why bother to stop to smell the nuance?

And please be honest enough to admit that you brought up the Texas school book situation not as an argument, rather as an argument stopper. I'm guessing next in your playbook will be some suggestion that I'm a racist.
 
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Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

At the same time though, you were definitely being a bit of a "homer" on Christianity, and reacted poorly when Foxton pointed out that Christian extremists have not only existed in the past, but continue to exist in the present.
 
Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Old Pio said:
I'm afraid I'm unable to grasp bringing up "Dr." Malik, given that his motivation for mass murder was serving Islam, that his loyalty to his faith transcended his loyalty to his country and justified his massacre of innocents. And given that is precisely my point.
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you said:
What I said was (and it evidently requires repeating so you can grasp the concept) is that Americans, regardless of their faith, reject the notion of killing others of different faiths just because they believe differently.
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He's an example of an American, just like the man who killed the abortion doctor, that put their faith before country and killed someone because of it. There's no difference between them and a real american, because there is no such thing as a real american, just as there's no true scotsman. If you're here, you're a citizen, you're an american.

You are apparantly so consumed with the kind of anti-Americanism that keeps 'em in stitches in the dorm on Saturday night (especially Saturday night) that you don't pay attention to what YOU'VE written.
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If anti-americanism means not believing that america was founded perfect and has been getting even more perfect ever since, then sign me up. There's good and there's bad.

I'm trying to distill your point, let's see if I've got it: the white man treated Indians badly in the 18th and 19th centuries, therefore it's okay, or at least not something to b***h about if Islamists want to kill Americans in the 21st century? That about it?
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See this is where you appear to be having a problem. We started at point A, moved to B, then to example C, and now you are comparing A to C, to create a strawman that somehow since america did bad in the past, I am saying it's alright for muslims to do similar today. When my original point was against you saying they needed to become culturally americanized, and that them forcing their beliefs was also wrong. The mention of past wrongs on america's part were examples against your generalization about what real americans believe.

Foxton said:
Obviously forcing others to observe their culture is wrong, just as it is for ANY religious group, because the law of the land matters more. But the reason this is a great country is that it's a land of many people with many cultures, and every attempt to forcibly make people into a unified vision of real americans has met with absolute failure.
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Oh and islam isn't a race, so there would be no point in calling you a racist. Unless you have some other topic in mind.
 
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Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Terrierbyassociation said:
At the same time though, you were definitely being a bit of a "homer" on Christianity, and reacted poorly when Foxton pointed out that Christian extremists have not only existed in the past, but continue to exist in the present.
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It is not a matter of Christian extremists. It is a matter that as a doctirne of faith, Islam, or at least the adherants to Islamism, believe that killing as many "infidels" as they can is the way to serve their religion. To my knowledge it is the only mono theistic religion currently preaching that. Any "Christian" in this country who thinks killing co-religionists or people of different faiths, is not expressing the tennets of Christianity, while "Dr." Malik was expressing the views held by millions of Muslims.

I must be missing those broadcasts on the Trinity Channel where Jan Crouch (in her pink wig) or Benny Hinn, encourages Christians to slaughter others. I need to start TIVOing. I was probably on vacation when those Baptists flew airplanes into buildings in New York City, or blew up trains in Spain or buses in London or the rest of it. There is no moral equivalent here, and to suggest there is, is criminally fatuous.
 
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Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Foxton said:
He's an example of an American, just like the man who killed the abortion doctor, that put their faith before country and killed someone because of it. There's no difference between them and a real american, because there is no such thing as a real american, just as there's no true scotsman. If you're here, you're a citizen, you're an american.


If anti-americanism means not believing that america was founded perfect and has been getting even more perfect ever since, then sign me up. There's good and there's bad.

See this is where you appear to be having a problem. We started at point A, moved to B, then to example C, and now you are comparing A to C, to create a strawman that somehow since america did bad in the past, I am saying it's alright for muslims to do similar today. When my original point was against you saying they needed to become culturally americanized, and that them forcing their beliefs was also wrong. The mention of past wrongs on america's part were examples against your generalization about what real americans believe.





Oh and islam isn't a race, so there would be no point in calling you a racist. Unless you have some other topic in mind.
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"There's good and there's bad" really? No one would gather that reading your posts. Malik, IMHO, is not an American. In his case that's merely a paperwork status. He is a Muslim extremist. He believes his primary loyalty is to an 8th century world view that commands him to slaughter innocents because they don't adhere to the same backward views. While the motivations of abortion doctor killers and "Dr." Malik may be similar, abortion doctor killers don't want to destroy our society, they just want to kill abortion doctors. "Dr." Malik believes the only future for the United States is under Sharia law and if millions of us have to die to usher in that particular hell, then so be it. Remember what he said: "We love death more than you love life." Charming.

If you weren't trying to make some sort of moral equivalent argument as between our treatment of Indians and the activities of Jihadis, then why did you bring it up?

Muslims make perfectly good Americans as far as I can tell, except for those who adhere to a faith they think transcends any other loyalty. And an unfortunate number of them think that loyalty needs to be expressed in death--death to non believers. That is not consistent with our 1st Amendment and is not what we are about as a country. And anyone, Muslim, Jew, Protestant, whatever who doesn't believe that is free to head to the friggin' airport. We have separated church and state and far too many of them haven't gotten that memo. And unless and until they do, we (all of us) are in constant danger. How many more deaths will it take for you to get the message?

No one is talking about forced assimilation (talk about your strawmen!). However, when people immigrate to a country (any country) it's not unreasonable for those already there to expect them to make some effort to get with the program. And for generations our immigrants have done exactly that. And that includes the descendants of those who were brought here in chains. It's not unreasonable (and in fact is the law) for people who become naturalized citizens to know how to speak English. And it's not unreasonable to expect them to live up to our prime directives: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Again, anyone for whom this is too great a burden is free to head for the exit.

My remark about racism was sarcasm. People on the left generally retreat to allegations of racism for anyone who has the temerity to disagree with them--on just about any subject. The Obama administration has been dealing from the bottom of an entire deck of race cards since day one. That's what I was referring to, although it's my guess you knew it.
 
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Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

MoFan said:
This is disgusting as well. I really worry about teenagers these days with all the school shootings, suicides, bullying, etc. It's a scary world sometimes.

The saddest thing to me about this is that her Mom warned school administrators about what was happening. It would appear that a lot of people knew what was going on - and tolerated it. I don't have all the facts but it looks like a really ugly situation for many. RIP Phoebe.

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100330nine_students_charged_in_death
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/01/massachusetts.bullying.suicide/index.html?hpt=T2

At least the administrators are taking responsibility:rolleyes:

Good news is they are very concerned about the kids in question getting a chance to resume their education.
 
Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

http://www.twincities.com/ci_14807549

Iowa baby died after being placed on stove-top
Associated Press
Updated: 04/02/2010 08:20:16 AM CDT

NEWTON, Iowa — Authorities say a 5-month-old Newton boy burned to death in his car seat when the seat was placed on a glass stove top that was accidentally turned on.

Chase Edward Finch died in the fire on Aug. 4.

His death has been ruled an accident, and police say no charges will be filed.

Police say the baby was in his car seat and was placed on top of the stove to avoid a dog in the home. At some point, the control for the left rear burner was bumped into the on position, which ignited the car seat.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives determined the knob could have been bumped by either the placement of the car seat or gentle rocking of the seat. The ATF also determined the car seat obscured the burner and indicator lights.
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Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Old Pio said:
"There's good and there's bad" really? No one would gather that reading your posts.
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Except people who actually read them.

If you weren't trying to make some sort of moral equivalent argument as between our treatment of Indians and the activities of Jihadis, then why did you bring it up?
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If you read both the prior posts and the last one, you may understand that the indian example was an argument against one of your 'real americans only do this' generalizations. YOU are the one who equated that with "jihadis" to misrepresent my position with a strawman argument.

And unless and until they do, we (all of us) are in constant danger. How many more deaths will it take for you to get the message?
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All of us are in constant danger? Fear monger much? Are they going to come and get us in the middle of the night? I better go buy a gun so I can protect myself!

And you wondered why I laughed when you said you had nothing against muslims.
No one is talking about forced assimilation (talk about your strawmen!). However, when people immigrate to a country (any country) it's not unreasonable for those already there to expect them to make some effort to get with the program. And for generations our immigrants have done exactly that. And that includes the descendants of those who were brought here in chains.
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But I do insist that they and folks from any other groups coming here adjust themselves to our culture and our way of doing things and not the other way 'round,.
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You did and while I may be going a bit too far with your original statement, if you knew anything about history at all you would know that America has had a long history of forced assimilation through laws or social pressures. Why do you think ethnic neighborhoods popped up? And slaves had hardly any choice in taking up European traditions. If that wasn't forced assimilation to you, I have no clue what strange definition you are using, but it would explain a lot.

And it's not unreasonable to expect them to live up to our prime directives: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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Pro-life would claim Pro-choice is anti-life.
Teapartiers claim Obama is anti-liberty
One of those extremists who thinks they are going to be a bunch of virgins may claim it's a pursuit of happiness.

There is no one universal social norm for the US. It's simply too vast and diverse to do so. The only thing that matters is that someone follows the law of the land, even if they think they follow a higher power. Which is not the exclusive domain of muslims. Have you perchance heard of the Hutaree group in all that news you listen to?

I'm through with you on this subject, not worth it to repeat and reiterate things when you read perhaps two words for any one sentence. The really bad thing was this whole thing grew out of your overreaction to my comment on how forced assimilation to some cultural ideal for america will always fail miserably, but otherwise agreeing that it's wrong for them to force the reverse.
 
Foxton said:
That very text I quoted of you suggesting that they should adopt "our" culture is an implication that there is some universally held belief system for Americans.
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The implication is that they shouldn't expect our laws to be transformed to mirror their theocracy, and that there are expectations for anyone wanting to be a citizen, such as showing your friggin face in an ID photo and not demanding paid time off to pray 5 times a day at work.
 
Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Slap Shot said:
The implication is that they shouldn't expect our laws to be transformed to mirror their theocracy, and that there are expectations for anyone wanting to be a citizen, such as showing your friggin face in an ID photo and not demanding paid time off to pray 5 times a day at work.
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Oh that's just not fair!!!!! We should change our whole culture, so they can feel more at home in the USA...:rolleyes:
 
Re: Nice Planet © 2009

Re: Nice Planet © 2009

ScoobyDoo said:
Watch some of the videos. It's sick.
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I really couldn't get past the first minute or so...just couldn't watch it.

I'm sure their solution will be to hire more staff people, with bloated salaries, at the expense of productive programs and taxpayer's wallets.

As of 2002 there were 13,000 school districts in this country.

Who in their right mind would look at something that needed to be done equally well across the nation and divide it into 13,000 pieces, each run differently?

Would any national chain have 13,000 district managers making $150,000 a year managing their national efforts? with their own buildings, staffs, assistants etc.?

But at least the results be doing real good.
 
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