Nice Planet 2010

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Its what happens when some local politician comes along and promisses to lower taxes, then makes the Fire and EMT services a paid for services instead of just having them give that money to them in taxes.

I would also think that it would cost the people that did pay for the Fire service a few seconds on each call when they're looking at whether or not the caller had paid their dues.

Perhaps. But lowering taxes per se had nothing to do with this situation. As I understand it, in this case the FD at first refused to respond, then finally did roll on the call and spent their time mainly gloating at the guy's loss.

There are ways to deal with chislers (if, in fact, that's what this guy was) short of deliberately allowing homes to burn down.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

I thought they'd come out and put it out, even if you hadn't paid your $75, but I was wrong," said Gene Cranick.

So, it sounds like he figured he could get the benefit without paying the costs.

Although, I do question the firefighters letting it spread to another person's house. That's idiotic.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

So, it sounds like he figured he could get the benefit without paying the costs.

Although, I do question the firefighters letting it spread to another person's house. That's idiotic.

Now that guy would likely have a pretty good case there I would bet.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

he put his own property at risk when he wouldnt pay for the services until he needed them. and he doesnt even live in that jurisdiction - so the local fire department had no reason to go outside their area to help him.

firefighters put their lives on the line every day. people who dont support them, shouldnt expect anyone to come when their house is on fire

Well THESE GD "firefighters" didn't put their lives at risk, did they? You're making all sorts of assumptions to justify the unjustifiable. What do you know about this case that none of the rest of us do?

Let's have it your way: the guy's a chisler, some sort of Libertarian nutbar or whatever. And you think the only way to deal with that is to let his house burn down? No other way? C'mon.

Without going too far afield, you remind me of the diehard supporters of Stanley Lord, the captain of the ship that saw 8 white rockets and did nothing to help the Titanic. His supporters are called "Lordites," and they've got all sorts of rationalizations and explanations for his dereliction of duty. But at the end of the day, rockets are rockets and Lord did nothing. Just as a fire is a fire and firefighters are supposed to put them out, without regard to jurisdictional disputes, concerns about who paid the fee or who stands to gain or lose. Just put out the GD fire and we'll sort out this other stuff later.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Well THESE GD "firefighters" didn't put their lives at risk, did they? You're making all sorts of assumptions to justify the unjustifiable. What do you know about this case that none of the rest of us do?

Let's have it your way: the guy's a chisler, some sort of Libertarian nutbar or whatever. And you think the only way to deal with that is to let his house burn down? No other way? C'mon.

Without going too far afield, you remind me of the diehard supporters of Stanley Lord, the captain of the ship that saw 8 white rockets and did nothing to help the Titanic. His supporters are called "Lordites," and they've got all sorts of rationalizations and explanations for his dereliction of duty. But at the end of the day, rockets are rockets and Lord did nothing. Just as a fire is a fire and firefighters are supposed to put them out, without regard to jurisdictional disputes, concerns about who paid the fee or who stands to gain or lose. Just put out the GD fire and we'll sort out this other stuff later.

Exactly. It's like that whole "treating the uninsured in the ER" in the health care debate... You can't let people die in the streets just like you can't watch a fire destroy someone's house.

 

[burgie12]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Well THESE GD "firefighters" didn't put their lives at risk, did they? You're making all sorts of assumptions to justify the unjustifiable.

They did risk their life and put out the fire. When it spread to the house of someone who payed for their service. Or did you not read the article?

Exactly. It's like that whole "treating the uninsured in the ER" in the health care debate... You can't let people die in the streets just like you can't watch a fire destroy someone's house.

However, I agree. This is extraordinarily similar to uninsured patients in the ER. Luckily, no person lost their life due to this fire. But, it's not something that I want to see repeated (from either side, I'd rather see a mandated tax than a person-by-person fee, and I don't want to see firefighters just blatantly ignoring fires).

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

...I'd rather see a mandated tax than a person-by-person fee, and I don't want to see firefighters just blatantly ignoring fires).

Uh, yeah, they already do that. It's called property taxes. That's their first responsibility. How they managed their money so poorly that they cannot provide the most basic of services (so basic that even the original simcity included them ) is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.

Then again, I haven't done any research so maybe there's a good reason. I just haven't seen it.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Uh, yeah, they already do that. It's called property taxes. That's their first responsibility. How they managed their money so poorly that they cannot provide the most basic of services (so basic that even the original simcity included them ) is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.

Then again, I haven't done any research so maybe there's a good reason. I just haven't seen it.

From what I gather, this is a really rural area. Whoever these people pay property taxes to, it's not the same city as this fire department is in. Since this fire department doesn't get property tax revenues from these people, they charge the $75 fee instead. I don't think it's necessarily a case of mismanaging money.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

So, it sounds like he figured he could get the benefit without paying the costs.

Although, I do question the firefighters letting it spread to another person's house. That's idiotic.

That quote does not support your conclusion. And even if it did, the punishment, in this case, did not fit the "crime."

 

[burgie12]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Uh, yeah, they already do that. It's called property taxes. That's their first responsibility. How they managed their money so poorly that they cannot provide the most basic of services (so basic that even the original simcity included them ) is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.

Then again, I haven't done any research so maybe there's a good reason. I just haven't seen it.

Having not lived in rural anywhere, I can't provide first-hand knowledge. But, I have heard of "basic services" not being automatically included in property taxes. And, if I lived in the middle of f*ing nowhere, I would not be entirely surprised if I had to pay an extra fee for someone to put out a fire at my house.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

They did risk their life and put out the fire. When it spread to the house of someone who payed for their service. Or did you not read the article?



However, I agree. This is extraordinarily similar to uninsured patients in the ER. Luckily, no person lost their life due to this fire. But, it's not something that I want to see repeated (from either side, I'd rather see a mandated tax than a person-by-person fee, and I don't want to see firefighters just blatantly ignoring fires).

Foolish, childish response. Try to do better or we'll send you down.

 

[burgie12]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

That quote does not support your conclusion. And even if it did, the punishment, in this case, did not fit the "crime."

Explain how that doesn't support his conclusion, please?
1) I am not going to pay the fee.
2) I assume that any issues I have are going to be covered anyways.
Therefore, 3) I get all of the benefits without paying anything.
4) ??
5) PROFIT!!

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

From what I gather, this is a really rural area. Whoever these people pay property taxes to, it's not the same city as this fire department is in. Since this fire department doesn't get property tax revenues from these people, they charge the $75 fee instead. I don't think it's necessarily a case of mismanaging money.

Then where do the property taxes go? Even if they are meager. Roads, fire, police, paramedics (although I seem to recall some of that being picked up by health insurance). Those are the basic services.

Hell, even water and sewer aren't basic services.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Explain how that doesn't support his conclusion, please?
1) I am not going to pay the fee.
2) I assume that any issues I have are going to be covered anyways.
Therefore, 3) I get all of the benefits without paying anything.
4) ??
5) PROFIT!!

Unless you're omnicient, how do you know his failure to pay the fee was not the simple oversight he said it was? In your world, is intent of no concern? You see no difference between refusing to pay and forgetting to pay? And anyone who vioates one of your precious rules deserves the equivalent of the death penalty, whether it was intentional or not? You can't concieve of any other way(s) to deal with chislers except to watch and gloat as their houses burn down? Any limits to your code of conduct? Could they have watched as a child died?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Then where do the property taxes go? Even if they are meager. Roads, fire, police, paramedics (although I seem to recall some of that being picked up by health insurance). Those are the basic services.

Hell, even water and sewer aren't basic services.

Here's a decent article: http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/r...-national-debate-on-public-services/19665148/
Makes it sound like property taxes go to police, schools, and health care.

Obion County mayor Benny McGuire cleared up the question of responsibility for public services, noting that "We provide law enforcement, schools, and some health care services, but fire protection is one thing we don't have to provide."

Later in the article:

Local departments also tried a "pay-as-you-go" system, under which they charged $500 to put out a fire, but were able to collect less than 50% of these fees.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Unless you're omnicient, how do you know his failure to pay the fee was not the simple oversight he said it was? In your world, is intent of no concern? You see no difference between refusing to pay and forgetting to pay? And anyone who vioates one of your precious rules deserves the equivalent of the death penalty, whether it was intentional or not? You can't concieve of any other way(s) to deal with chislers except to watch and gloat as their houses burn down? Any limits to your code of conduct? Could they have watched as a child died?

Again, I have to agree. What if a child was in that house when it was burning to the ground? Do they stand outside on principle? These guys don't deserve the honor of being called a firefighter.

 

[burgie12]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Unless you're omnicient, how do you know his failure to pay the fee was not the simple oversight he said it was? In your world, is intent of no concern? You see no difference between refusing to pay and forgetting to pay? And anyone who vioates one of your precious rules deserves the equivalent of the death penalty, whether it was intentional or not? You can't concieve of any other way(s) to deal with chislers except to watch and gloat as their houses burn down? Any limits to your code of conduct? Could they have watched as a child died?

What death penalty? No one died here.

I also said that there should be a tax such that it's not an opt-in policy, but the loving, I'll never not be there feeling that we're used to.

I also agreed with dxmnkd who said that the firefighters should put out the fire, but make the individual pay for the entirety of the bill, so that they can't just wait until it's convenient to pay the $75 fee.

Where did I ever support just letting it burn? My ability to see / understand / argue both sides (while calling you out for clearly not reading the article and just making assumptions / finishing the article however you want it to) should not take away from the fact that I AGREE WITH YOU!

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

Again, I have to agree. What if a child was in that house when it was burning to the ground? Do they stand outside on principle? These guys don't deserve the honor of being called a firefighter.

If there was a child inside, I'd like to think that they would be rushing in there to save her. If not, then believe me, I'd be right there with all the people calling for the fire departments heads- or worse.

However, there wasn't. So now this becomes about property, not human life, and that changes things in my mind.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

If there was a child inside, I'd like to think that they would be rushing in there to save her. If not, then believe me, I'd be right there with all the people calling for the fire departments heads- or worse.

However, there wasn't. So now this becomes about property, not human life, and that changes things in my mind.

I like the idea mentioned above, if you don't pay the original $75 they should put out the fire and send you a bill.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Nice Planet 2010

What death penalty? No one died here.

I also said that there should be a tax such that it's not an opt-in policy, but the loving, I'll never not be there feeling that we're used to.

I also agreed with dxmnkd who said that the firefighters should put out the fire, but make the individual pay for the entirety of the bill, so that they can't just wait until it's convenient to pay the $75 fee.

Where did I ever support just letting it burn? My ability to see / understand / argue both sides (while calling you out for clearly not reading the article and just making assumptions / finishing the article however you want it to) should not take away from the fact that I AGREE WITH YOU!

I said "equivalent" of the death penalty. For most middle or working class people, to lose their home and everything in it (much of which can't be replaced) is a devastating blow. But we all appreciate your empathy.

I've read all the articles, but I saw nowhere in any of them that the victim in this case deliberately refused to pay--as you have assumed. Where is the source of that assumption, other than in your little head?

And your comment about the fire fighters putting their lives at risk in the OTHER fire is contemptible and moronic.

I don't give a chit whether you agree with me or not. Right is right, and firefighters ought to feel at least a moral if not legal obligation to put out fires. Or at least try. That's just me.