Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Oz has a lot of international students that aren't just athletes. However, their compliance people have to be really diligent in order to make sure there are no slip ups.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

Oz has a lot of international students that aren't just athletes. However, their compliance people have to be really diligent in order to make sure there are no slip ups.

I was told last year that Oz was safe....investigated and found in compliance, same with the Birds....

 

[Ozz]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

A roster full of international students does not imply illegal wrong doings. I firmly believe Ozz is fine and have to believe that after having a NC vacated Platty would be doing everything in it's power to be compliant.

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I was told last year that Oz was safe....investigated and found in compliance, same with the Birds....

Good to hear the alls well...........................for now

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

1. A - Mexico. Its so warm there the pools are full of hockey players
2. E - Taxpayers where the DREAM Act has been implemented
3. D - NEC
4. A - see Jaslow, Russell -- however the NESCAC will say that all schools need to be "D" (except them).

Thanks for making me spit my Fuze all over my monitor at work. That NESCAC line is awesome!

 

[elbojpb]

Future of Neumann?

Future of Neumann?

From D3Hockey.com ...

Created in 2005-06 to bolster enrollment of international students, Neumann's Canadian International Student Initiative Grant (CISIG) was received exclusively by men's and women's ice hockey players in the 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2010-11 academic years. Hockey players accounted for 97% of grants received in the 2009-10 academic year. Though the NCAA concluded the violations were not intentional, it deemed the disproportionately high rate of CISIG recipients who were athletes established the grants as de facto athletics scholarships

Assuming that the current distribution of these scholarships is essentially the same as in 10/11, either NU a) immediately quintuples the number of these "scholarships" and doles them to non-hockey students, or b) redistributes the scholarships commensurately through the student population.

There's no way in Hades that this was "not intentional" regardless, I don't like the way this portends for the school, the ECAC/W and D3 in general.

 

[Scott Biggar]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I have read the full NCAA report in its entirety, which also includes a complete timeline of events at Neumann, the investigations (yes, plural), and the findings. I plan on covering this fully in my column this week so stay tuned as I keep poking around. So far, I would agree with the "unintentional" label to the findings.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I have read the full NCAA report in its entirety, which also includes a complete timeline of events at Neumann, the investigations (yes, plural), and the findings. I plan on covering this fully in my column this week so stay tuned as I keep poking around. So far, I would agree with the "unintentional" label to the findings.

Wouldn't you stop if you got investigated ONCE??!!

 

[d3follower]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I have read the full NCAA report in its entirety, which also includes a complete timeline of events at Neumann, the investigations (yes, plural), and the findings. I plan on covering this fully in my column this week so stay tuned as I keep poking around. So far, I would agree with the "unintentional" label to the findings.

So unintentional means something like no signed confession or maybe no one at Neumann is responsible for anything?????

 

[Birds]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

As I have mentioned before ,Plattsburgh State was listed in the newspaper as having the largest population of international students with the greater number coming from Asia and also many countries other than Canada. I find this to be a very positive thing by bringing PSU onto the world map.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I have read the full NCAA report in its entirety, which also includes a complete timeline of events at Neumann, the investigations (yes, plural), and the findings. I plan on covering this fully in my column this week so stay tuned as I keep poking around. So far, I would agree with the label to the findings.

I would agree it was "unintentional" in that the programs were not created solely with athletics in mind, rather I find it ignorant and/or incompetent. If you create a financial incentive program without a complete analysis of the potential stakeholders and the potential impacts, then the consequences of the actions are just as quilty as if they had done it intentionally.

Neumann recognized the need to promote the CISIG program to students beyond the hockey coaches efforts, but FAILED to put into place "a checks and balances" to make sure they stayed within the NCAA guidelines - this even AFTER Geneseo and Buffalo State had been hit with sanctions. IMO, intentional - maybe not - inexcusable to the point of demanding a vacated title - YES.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I would agree it was "unintentional" in that the programs were not created solely with athletics in mind, rather I find it ignorant and/or incompetent. If you create a financial incentive program without a complete analysis of the potential stakeholders and the potential impacts, then the consequences of the actions are just as quilty as if they had done it intentionally.

Neumann recognized the need to promote the CISIG program to students beyond the hockey coaches efforts, but FAILED to put into place "a checks and balances" to make sure they stayed within the NCAA guidelines - this even AFTER Geneseo and Buffalo State had been hit with sanctions. IMO, intentional - maybe not - inexcusable to the point of demanding a vacated title - YES.

I think that's what they call lack of institutional control. They should have known there was a problem and should have acted to rectify it. They didn't

eom

 

[PSUChamps2001]

I would agree it was "unintentional" in that the programs were not created solely with athletics in mind, rather I find it ignorant and/or incompetent. If you create a financial incentive program without a complete analysis of the potential stakeholders and the potential impacts, then the consequences of the actions are just as quilty as if they had done it intentionally.

Neumann recognized the need to promote the CISIG program to students beyond the hockey coaches efforts, but FAILED to put into place "a checks and balances" to make sure they stayed within the NCAA guidelines - this even AFTER Geneseo and Buffalo State had been hit with sanctions. IMO, intentional - maybe not - inexcusable to the point of demanding a vacated title - YES.

Only if it was 1987...

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I think that's what they call lack of institutional control. They should have known there was a problem and should have acted to rectify it. They didn't

eom

True, the a failure to create institutional controls will result in a "lack of institutional control". They should have known they were creating a potential problem and should have proactively acted to prevent it. They didn't

eom

 

[joecct]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I would agree it was "unintentional" in that the programs were not created solely with athletics in mind, rather I find it ignorant and/or incompetent. If you create a financial incentive program without a complete analysis of the potential stakeholders and the potential impacts, then the consequences of the actions are just as quilty as if they had done it intentionally.

If you believe that, I will sell you the Tappan Zee Bridge.

Year      Record    Canada    Notes
2004-05  4-17-2    5 CDN's
2005-06  14-10-1   20 CDN's  Grants of $10K begin
2006-07  17-5-5    24 CDN's  NCAA inquires
2007-08  17-9-0    19 CDN's  NCAA says OK :eek:
2008-09  21-9-2    18 CDN's  Grants to $11K, wins NCAA championship  -- 4 yrs of CISIG
2009-10  15-9-3    19 CDN's  Grants to $13K
2010-11  14-9-5    19 CDN's  Grants stopped for incoming students
2011-12            20 CDN's

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

If you believe that, I will sell you the Tappan Zee Bridge.

Year      Record    Canada    Notes
2004-05  4-17-2    5 CDN's
2005-06  14-10-1   20 CDN's  Grants of $10K begin
2006-07  17-5-5    24 CDN's  NCAA inquires
2007-08  17-9-0    19 CDN's  NCAA says OK :eek:
2008-09  21-9-2    18 CDN's  Grants to $11K, wins NCAA championship  -- 4 yrs of CISIG
2009-10  15-9-3    19 CDN's  Grants to $13K
2010-11  14-9-5    19 CDN's  Grants stopped for incoming students
2011-12            20 CDN's

Do you REALLY believe the coaches went to the administration and said "Hey we need to create a financial incentive so we can recruit more Canadian athletes."? I don't think it was that intentional, I'm willing to believe that some half-talented "genius" realized that a significant number of Canadians were attending schools within their "peer group" and wanted to improve their efforts in that area. The hockey coaches I believe simply "ran with it" - maximum utilization of available resources. Unfortunately, as Plattsburgh's AD has demonstrated, skill as a coach doesn't necessarily equate to administrative competence. Should awareness of the potential NCAA consequences been "top of mind" and "lit up" by the Geneseo/Buffalo State sanctions - YES, do I think it was their intent to cheat and try to circumvent the rules - NO. I think they simply "know enough to be dangerous" - i.e. schools like Plattsburgh and Oswego are "doing it", so we should be able to as well - which is true - IF - they have the complete package - i.e. SUCCESSFUL BALANCED recruiting of athletes AND non-athletes - AND - that takes more than just a financial aid package, it takes EFFECTIVE recruiting BEYOND the athletic department.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I really think the point is that, especially having been investigated once, the school should have known there was a potential problem with the program. It certainly would seem that the ones most likely to be at fault are the Financial Aid Office, and the Athletic Director's Office. If anybody should know the Division III regulations, it the AD, and the FAO. The first investigation should have alerted them to the problem. That's just blatant disregard. I believe that in the law there is a concept of criminal negligence which means that if you don't do something you clearly should have done, it can be treated as though it were deliberate.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I really think the point is that, especially having been investigated once, the school should have known there was a potential problem with the program. It certainly would seem that the ones most likely to be at fault are the Financial Aid Office, and the Athletic Director's Office. If anybody should know the Division III regulations, it the AD, and the FAO. The first investigation should have alerted them to the problem. That's just blatant disregard. I believe that in the law there is a concept of criminal negligence which means that if you don't do something you clearly should have done, it can be treated as though it were deliberate.

Negligence per se , IMO this is the fault of "upper management", the coaches themselves should have confidence that their AD and Financial Aid administration knows and are following the fundamentals.

 

[OSU2010]

I really think the point is that, especially having been investigated once, the school should have known there was a potential problem with the program. It certainly would seem that the ones most likely to be at fault are the Financial Aid Office, and the Athletic Director's Office. If anybody should know the Division III regulations, it the AD, and the FAO. The first investigation should have alerted them to the problem. That's just blatant disregard. I believe that in the law there is a concept of criminal negligence which means that if you don't do something you clearly should have done, it can be treated as though it were deliberate.

On the same token, they were investigated once and they weren't fined and or sanctioned at the time, They probably assumed that since nothing happened after the first time that they were in compliance.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason

I don't know whats worse...

"Hey let's see if we can get away with this..."
Or
"Lets hand out $10,000 dollar grants to Canadian students, which 99% play sports, and pretend like there is nothing wrong with this picture..."

This wasnt 1/4 this wasnt 1/3 this wasnt 1/2...this wasnt even 3/4 it was 99%.

Do I feel bad for the other schools who were borderline? Yes because you cant really manage how many potential Canadian non athletes will come in to offset the ratio. Still I would always make sure I had more. But now after 3 schools, no excuse. And then to add on $10,000??? And you honestly think the coach didn't know???? Please....thats a HUGE recruiting tool...

"Here coach we are going to give your Canadian players a $10,000 discount...don't ask questions...don't look into it....don't worry about other schools who have been caught....you just go out and win a national title using defacto athletic scholarships"
Or
"What do you mean my players have been getting a $10,000 grant?? No one ever told me anything about it. Boy I wish I woukd have known this I could have gone out and recruited Canadian hockey players."

What makes it unintentional? Because they said it was a grant and not scholarship??? Please. 99% people 99%.

If armchair quarterbacks on some little DIII message board know about the rule, you're an idiot if you think the coach and staff didn't know what was going on.....