Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
Which is even more evidence that it was far from "unintentional."
Which is even more evidence that it was far from "unintentional."
USCHO Fan Forum
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.
Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
- Thread starter LakerFan99
- Start date
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
I am certain NO ONE thinks the recruiting efforts AND promotion of the program by the athletic department was "unintentional", what is subject to debate is whether or not it was the intention of the program creators to create a program to circumvent the NCAA policies. It is also arguable whether or not they exercised due diligence in their administration of the program. Anyone in a position to create a program as significant as the Canadian International Student Initiative Grants should be held responsible for adhering to their contractrual obligations (i.e. the NCAA Rules & Regulations), they did not. IMO, in light of the sanctions handed Plattsburgh in 1987, the sanctions handed down against in Neumann are an abomination of not only the NCAA but Neumann's (f/k/a Our Lady of Angels) Administration as well.
I am certain NO ONE thinks the recruiting efforts AND promotion of the program by the athletic department was "unintentional", what is subject to debate is whether or not it was the intention of the program creators to create a program to circumvent the NCAA policies. It is also arguable whether or not they exercised due diligence in their administration of the program. Anyone in a position to create a program as significant as the Canadian International Student Initiative Grants should be held responsible for adhering to their contractrual obligations (i.e. the NCAA Rules & Regulations), they did not. IMO, in light of the sanctions handed Plattsburgh in 1987, the sanctions handed down against in Neumann are an abomination of not only the NCAA but Neumann's (f/k/a Our Lady of Angels) Administration as well.
elbojpb
Well-known member
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
And as for the inconsistency in the penalty ... Cards fans, just let it go. It does no good for the future and reputation of college hockey to have yet another "scandal" despite the incongruous manner in which the penalties were meted out. It's really psychologically unhealthy to perseverate on an issue that occurred long before most of these kids were even born.
That's all I have to say about that.
We're giving the admissions staff at small colleges wwaaaaaay too much credit. They're typically poorly paid, young, highly mobile staff that can barely recruit, let alone follow obscure rules. I'm positive that no one at Neumann gave any thought whatsover to tracking the ratio of Canadian grants to hockey players vs non-hockey students. Should they have in a perfect world ... absolutely, but the fact that this has happened four times in three years speaks to the general incompetence of D3 athletic/admissions departments.
And as for the inconsistency in the penalty ... Cards fans, just let it go. It does no good for the future and reputation of college hockey to have yet another "scandal" despite the incongruous manner in which the penalties were meted out. It's really psychologically unhealthy to perseverate on an issue that occurred long before most of these kids were even born.
That's all I have to say about that.
bakdraft21
Well-known member
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
Ok well you can say this has happened four times in 3 yrs, but what about the schools that checked out OK by the NCAAs?? As for the penalty, vacating the title does little for anybody, and I know this first hand as I was on the Oz 87 team and it really didnt help me to know that Platty got disqualified.....bottom line is what I have seen in the past is its the NCAAs, who knows what will happen next,they seems to be very inconsistent in all that they do......
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
Neumann is fully accredited, was established in 1965 and has a student body of about 2000 full time undergraduates, 500 part-time undergraduates AND 600 graduates student. It has a an endowment of $13.5 million. Sports Management and Strategic Leadership are, perhaps ironically, among its GRADUATE programs so as for giving them "wwaaaaaay too much credit", claiming that is IMO, very nieve.
The 1987 issue, should have set a precedent as to what happens when you fail to exercise adequate institutional control. Yes, the circumstances are different, Plattsburgh's involved boosters/fans and Nuemann's their financial aid/recruiting/athletic offices - but in the end, both were victims if a failure to exercise adequate institutional control - you need to stay within the rules. Both involved a simular degree of culpability, yet Nuemann faces a token penality.
Neumann is fully accredited, was established in 1965 and has a student body of about 2000 full time undergraduates, 500 part-time undergraduates AND 600 graduates student. It has a an endowment of $13.5 million. Sports Management and Strategic Leadership are, perhaps ironically, among its GRADUATE programs so as for giving them "wwaaaaaay too much credit", claiming that is IMO, very nieve.
The 1987 issue, should have set a precedent as to what happens when you fail to exercise adequate institutional control. Yes, the circumstances are different, Plattsburgh's involved boosters/fans and Nuemann's their financial aid/recruiting/athletic offices - but in the end, both were victims if a failure to exercise adequate institutional control - you need to stay within the rules. Both involved a simular degree of culpability, yet Nuemann faces a token penality.
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
You do the crime, you serve the time.
I can live with not vacating the title, but I think that the milquetoast "ban" from the post season this year is not reasonable. We have had teams with less egregious violations of that rule get banned from the post season (like Buff Stat, Potsdam, for example) for real.
You do the crime, you serve the time.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
In as much as I feel vacating a title is like trying to rewite history, I agree nothing should be gained from forcing a vacated title - IMO to mean anything, a school needs to voluntarily vacate it.
cooperalls
Registered User
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
I don't believe it was a $10,000 grant I believe it was called the $10,000 deal where any Internatonal Student could go to Neumann for $10,000 total. At one time it was $7,000. I believe it all started around when a new coach came in and they were good overnight. Of Course any coach if told that it is okay would do go out and utilize this. But you can't fault the coaches because as it is apparent this rule just started to come to light 2 years ago when Buffalo State and Genesseo were ruled to be breaking the rules. But I don't honestly think the coaches were probably ever told or ever read the rule and if it was a new rule then the Assistant AD or whoever was in charge of Compliance should have shared it with him.
I don't believe it was a $10,000 grant I believe it was called the $10,000 deal where any Internatonal Student could go to Neumann for $10,000 total. At one time it was $7,000. I believe it all started around when a new coach came in and they were good overnight. Of Course any coach if told that it is okay would do go out and utilize this. But you can't fault the coaches because as it is apparent this rule just started to come to light 2 years ago when Buffalo State and Genesseo were ruled to be breaking the rules. But I don't honestly think the coaches were probably ever told or ever read the rule and if it was a new rule then the Assistant AD or whoever was in charge of Compliance should have shared it with him.
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
It doesn't matter who is at fault here. The rules were broken. Teams have had to miss post season play for violating it in the past, and in those cases it was "unintentional." What I don't get is why Neumann gets a pass on the post-season punishment.
It doesn't matter who is at fault here. The rules were broken. Teams have had to miss post season play for violating it in the past, and in those cases it was "unintentional." What I don't get is why Neumann gets a pass on the post-season punishment.
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
I understand there are rules you have to play by and not suggesting it’s ok to break the rules.
But if people qualify for the money why does it matter who it goes too? I get the quality position.
NCAA is so outdated
I understand there are rules you have to play by and not suggesting it’s ok to break the rules.
But if people qualify for the money why does it matter who it goes too? I get the quality position.
NCAA is so outdated
Though I agree with you that DIII should be allowed to give athletic scholarships, the fact remains that those are the rules and all of the other schools followed those rules (supposedly) and if one team breaks the rules it gives an unfair advantage to that team in recruiting.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
Potsdam's men's lacrosse team and Buffalo State women's lacrosse team also got a pass in the postseason ban because they were able to "clean" their roster before the season started.
It appears the NCAA wasn't using a postseason ban as a punishment (the punishment were the probations and fines). However, they were saying if your roster currently consists of players receiving this sort of aid, you cannot compete in the postseason (note, no one was made to forfeit any games, and those players were allowed to continue playing). The fact that the hockey teams of Buffalo State, Geneseo, Potsdam, and Morrisville happened to still have players in this situation when the ruling came out was more bad luck than anything else. Conversly, the fact the two aforementioned lacrosse teams had time to correct the problem and Neumann happened to not have any players in this situation in their current roster was simply good luck.
Also note that the NCAA said as long as those players were on the roster (unless they stopped receiving aid), those teams could not compete in the playoffs. It wasn't just for the current year the sanctions came out.
Potsdam's men's lacrosse team and Buffalo State women's lacrosse team also got a pass in the postseason ban because they were able to "clean" their roster before the season started.
It appears the NCAA wasn't using a postseason ban as a punishment (the punishment were the probations and fines). However, they were saying if your roster currently consists of players receiving this sort of aid, you cannot compete in the postseason (note, no one was made to forfeit any games, and those players were allowed to continue playing). The fact that the hockey teams of Buffalo State, Geneseo, Potsdam, and Morrisville happened to still have players in this situation when the ruling came out was more bad luck than anything else. Conversly, the fact the two aforementioned lacrosse teams had time to correct the problem and Neumann happened to not have any players in this situation in their current roster was simply good luck.
Also note that the NCAA said as long as those players were on the roster (unless they stopped receiving aid), those teams could not compete in the playoffs. It wasn't just for the current year the sanctions came out.
Last edited:
PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Its not a new rule or new practice. And you can think all you want about a coach not knowing. Any coach should know the rules, especially in DIII where you have to take advantage of anything you can (ala aid packages). The difference is Buff State and others were borderline in their infractions.....Neumamm was 99%....99%!!!! If it were much lower you wouldn't see the uprising you do now as you cant control who comes....but when you've never had a large foreign population at your school of just around 3,000 people and over night this magical grant, aid, defacto scholarship whatever comes around you magically think you're going to get them to come? How this doesn't look like a scholarship is beyond me.....
" come to our school..we will give you a nice chunk of change even tho we've never had a big foreign population to begin with.....what do you mean you play hockey??? Amazing we have a hockey team too....."
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
The NCAA will only vacate titles for blatant cheating, lack of institutional control, etc. They will not vacate titles for "unintential" violations. There has been a long list of teams at all levels that have been cited, but not made to vacate titles. Comparing just these two examples are like apples and oranges. You have to look at the whole history of NCAA sanctions to get a good idea if they are being consistent.
Note, that none of the five schools were ever made to forfeit a single game, and the players who fell under these circumstances were still allowed to play with no effect on results and standings (outside of no postseason play). This certainly indicates the NCAA deemed this as a minor, unintentional violation, unlike Plattsburgh which had players on the booster club members payroll in no-show jobs. They were nearly pulling an SMU.
The NCAA will only vacate titles for blatant cheating, lack of institutional control, etc. They will not vacate titles for "unintential" violations. There has been a long list of teams at all levels that have been cited, but not made to vacate titles. Comparing just these two examples are like apples and oranges. You have to look at the whole history of NCAA sanctions to get a good idea if they are being consistent.
Note, that none of the five schools were ever made to forfeit a single game, and the players who fell under these circumstances were still allowed to play with no effect on results and standings (outside of no postseason play). This certainly indicates the NCAA deemed this as a minor, unintentional violation, unlike Plattsburgh which had players on the booster club members payroll in no-show jobs. They were nearly pulling an SMU.
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
I'm not going to dispute what you wrote, but keep in mind that coaches are NOT ALLOWED to talk to recruits about any sort of aid program the school may have. That in itself is a recruiting violation in Division III.
Now, am I naive to think they all abide by that rule? Of course not. But keep in mind, even the most anal coaches are not really going to know anything about the ratios and such. Every coach I've talked to tells me they can't even get the financial aid departments to give them any of this information. I have heard the same thing from someone I know who works in a SUNY school financial aid office (they aren't even allowed to tell the student's parents certain things, even when the parents are paying the bills due to federal privacy laws). It is the responsiblity of the AD and/or compliance manager and/or the financial aid dept. to make sure NCAA rules are followed in this situation.
And to prove my point, I know for a fact that a lot of coaches (some at some very high profile hockey schools) have been calling the schools that have run afoul of this ruling asking lots of questions. There are a lot of very nervous coaches around the Division III hockey world right now... We have not seen the end of this.
I'm not going to dispute what you wrote, but keep in mind that coaches are NOT ALLOWED to talk to recruits about any sort of aid program the school may have. That in itself is a recruiting violation in Division III.
Now, am I naive to think they all abide by that rule? Of course not. But keep in mind, even the most anal coaches are not really going to know anything about the ratios and such. Every coach I've talked to tells me they can't even get the financial aid departments to give them any of this information. I have heard the same thing from someone I know who works in a SUNY school financial aid office (they aren't even allowed to tell the student's parents certain things, even when the parents are paying the bills due to federal privacy laws). It is the responsiblity of the AD and/or compliance manager and/or the financial aid dept. to make sure NCAA rules are followed in this situation.
And to prove my point, I know for a fact that a lot of coaches (some at some very high profile hockey schools) have been calling the schools that have run afoul of this ruling asking lots of questions. There are a lot of very nervous coaches around the Division III hockey world right now... We have not seen the end of this.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
So 99% of the student aid to hockey players ISN'T blantant, and it is easier to have "institutional control" over boosters than it is your own athletic department?
Or am I missing your point
So 99% of the student aid to hockey players ISN'T blantant, and it is easier to have "institutional control" over boosters than it is your own athletic department?
Or am I missing your point
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
Neumann is on the fringe of what you talk about compared to the other schools that got into trouble. It's certainly difficult to rationalize their situation in the same light as the others.
As for booster control ... well, that's a whole other situation. On the one hand, I've always had trouble with schools getting nailed for what their boosters did, since technically they are outside the school. On the other hand, we all know if no control is exerted, the schools will merely use the boosters to do their cheating for them.
So 99% of the student aid to hockey players ISN'T blantant, and it is easier to have "institutional control" over boosters than it is your own athletic department?
Or am I missing your point
Neumann is on the fringe of what you talk about compared to the other schools that got into trouble. It's certainly difficult to rationalize their situation in the same light as the others.
As for booster control ... well, that's a whole other situation. On the one hand, I've always had trouble with schools getting nailed for what their boosters did, since technically they are outside the school. On the other hand, we all know if no control is exerted, the schools will merely use the boosters to do their cheating for them.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
A "fringe" - or an outlier? They did face a $10000 fine and Morrisville didn't, but other than that token, they DID not - at least publically - pay a proportional price.
Penalties for improper "institutional control" are valid, and it isn't that unreasonable to expect someone in an administrative role at the TEAM level to insure "last mile" compliance with the rules they choose to operate under (i.e. in the case the NCAA DIII).
A "fringe" - or an outlier? They did face a $10000 fine and Morrisville didn't, but other than that token, they DID not - at least publically - pay a proportional price.
Penalties for improper "institutional control" are valid, and it isn't that unreasonable to expect someone in an administrative role at the TEAM level to insure "last mile" compliance with the rules they choose to operate under (i.e. in the case the NCAA DIII).
Russell Jaslow
Registered User
Re: Neumann and Morrisville sanctioned by NCAA, banned from postseason
Agree. But remember, compliance is a difficult thing when the NCAA kept changing the rules. And note in my column where I mentioned the NCAA providing vague guidelines when they warned schools in the past. I wonder if part of the reason all these punishments, even to Neumann, have been relatively mild is because the NCAA realizes they weren't much help themselves.
Agree. But remember, compliance is a difficult thing when the NCAA kept changing the rules. And note in my column where I mentioned the NCAA providing vague guidelines when they warned schools in the past. I wonder if part of the reason all these punishments, even to Neumann, have been relatively mild is because the NCAA realizes they weren't much help themselves.