It is a very difficult problem and there are no easy answers. And no matter which choices are proposed, there will be strong opposition from another faction. The logistics of a Super Regional are nearly impossible, what may be a good hockey market at one level, may not be so good at another. Huntsville is a great example. Their SPHL team draws over 4500 a night, while UAH has trouble getting half that many. And even in the good college hockey markets, if you don't have a local marquee team in the regional, you're dead in the water.
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NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
- Thread starter Caustic Undertow
- Start date
It is a very difficult problem and there are no easy answers. And no matter which choices are proposed, there will be strong opposition from another faction. The logistics of a Super Regional are nearly impossible, what may be a good hockey market at one level, may not be so good at another. Huntsville is a great example. Their SPHL team draws over 4500 a night, while UAH has trouble getting half that many. And even in the good college hockey markets, if you don't have a local marquee team in the regional, you're dead in the water.
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
Dead on, and it's also important to note that the NCAA is not some unified monolithic block. There are a lot of factions even within the NCAA.
Dead on, and it's also important to note that the NCAA is not some unified monolithic block. There are a lot of factions even within the NCAA.
Nick Papagiorgio
Holding court
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
Well, I do want to laugh. And I just did.
I never sit in traffic. Ever.
Well, I do want to laugh. And I just did.
I never sit in traffic. Ever.
Split-N
All Hail
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
And this is somehow the fault of "NCAA Hockey Administrators"?
And this is somehow the fault of "NCAA Hockey Administrators"?
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
I'm pretty sure any other regional would be thrilled with 7,500-11,000 in attendance for a regional. In the end, I think part of the problem is the shear number of major events going on in MSP area over the next few years that the X decided not to bid on the 2019 regionals. I would hope they would be back in the mix in 2020 and we can get some other random venue to get involved and everything should be ok. I don't think anyone can be terribly mad if North Dakota, Minnesota, Penn State, and some 4th team each get one regional site over the course of 2 years...and at that point, if they don't like it, they can bid to host somewhere...but again, the limited number of "neutral" venues in the "west" and the apparent regional wasteland that is east of the Mississippi and west of the Appalachians is difficult to overcome.
Let's be honest, its not even fair to compare the east and the west...I had a 700+ mile drive to attend the Midwest regional this year...To blame the fans when the costs are prohibitive is just silly. The regional system is broken and yes, some of the blame needs to fall on the fans for not going out and supporting college hockey even when their local team didn't make the regional. But Miami is averaging 2,600, how exactly are they going to fill US Bank Arena in Cincinnati when they can't even pack their own 3,200 seat building. St Paul used to pack the X for Final Five weekend and every team seemed to have fans that made it an annual trip regardless of if their team actually made it there. A week later, the X would host a regional, face value of tickets would be way more and they could barely get the building half full...granted no other regional really ever comes close to 18,000 but it is a great example.
I'm pretty sure any other regional would be thrilled with 7,500-11,000 in attendance for a regional. In the end, I think part of the problem is the shear number of major events going on in MSP area over the next few years that the X decided not to bid on the 2019 regionals. I would hope they would be back in the mix in 2020 and we can get some other random venue to get involved and everything should be ok. I don't think anyone can be terribly mad if North Dakota, Minnesota, Penn State, and some 4th team each get one regional site over the course of 2 years...and at that point, if they don't like it, they can bid to host somewhere...but again, the limited number of "neutral" venues in the "west" and the apparent regional wasteland that is east of the Mississippi and west of the Appalachians is difficult to overcome.
Split-N
All Hail
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
You're onto something here that extends well beyond Miami. The ubiquity of the various social media platforms, easy access to Netflix and other video streaming portals, the obsession with video games and emergence of e-gaming, not to mention non-cyber competition for the entertainment dollar, are all are shaping cultural trends that bode ill for spectator sports at all levels. While I have more years behind me than I want to admit to, I do try to keep a finger on the pulse of what's "cool" to the younger generation and find that going to sports events is not high on coolness list. With the possible exception of Minnesota high school hockey, what you noted about Miami is, unfortunately, being replicated across many other high school and college campuses and affects more than hockey. People I know who are in the sports marketing business think a day of reckoning is coming.
You're onto something here that extends well beyond Miami. The ubiquity of the various social media platforms, easy access to Netflix and other video streaming portals, the obsession with video games and emergence of e-gaming, not to mention non-cyber competition for the entertainment dollar, are all are shaping cultural trends that bode ill for spectator sports at all levels. While I have more years behind me than I want to admit to, I do try to keep a finger on the pulse of what's "cool" to the younger generation and find that going to sports events is not high on coolness list. With the possible exception of Minnesota high school hockey, what you noted about Miami is, unfortunately, being replicated across many other high school and college campuses and affects more than hockey. People I know who are in the sports marketing business think a day of reckoning is coming.
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Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
For sure a day of reckoning is approaching from the revenue side. I think a day of reckoning is also approaching from the cost side. The majority of sports at a majority of schools are money losers. Currently, whatever money is lost is made up by increasing tuition and donations (and in the case of public institutions, tax dollars). But colleges can’t keep raising tuition; more and more people are questioning the value of college tuition. Public dollars are drying up also, and from the donation side college administrators are caught between the proverbial rock and hard place. Many people donate to colleges <i>because</i> of the athletic programs and donations would go down if athletic programs were cut back or eliminated, but eventually the day will come when a cost/benefit analysis will show that the marginal benefit of increased donations isn't worth the cost of the program and the marginal decrease in donations if sports are eliminated.
For sure I'm not talking about the Penn States and Harvards of the world. But there are plenty of D1 hockey schools for which this will be a real problem.
For sure a day of reckoning is approaching from the revenue side. I think a day of reckoning is also approaching from the cost side. The majority of sports at a majority of schools are money losers. Currently, whatever money is lost is made up by increasing tuition and donations (and in the case of public institutions, tax dollars). But colleges can’t keep raising tuition; more and more people are questioning the value of college tuition. Public dollars are drying up also, and from the donation side college administrators are caught between the proverbial rock and hard place. Many people donate to colleges <i>because</i> of the athletic programs and donations would go down if athletic programs were cut back or eliminated, but eventually the day will come when a cost/benefit analysis will show that the marginal benefit of increased donations isn't worth the cost of the program and the marginal decrease in donations if sports are eliminated.
For sure I'm not talking about the Penn States and Harvards of the world. But there are plenty of D1 hockey schools for which this will be a real problem.
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
mookie's speed limit here is 80
(and mookie speeds 
)
mookie's speed limit here is 80
(and mookie speeds )
cetihcra
New member
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
Everybody but the B1G, any school with D1A football, and DU/NoDak. Truly.
r
Everybody but the B1G, any school with D1A football, and DU/NoDak. Truly.
r
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Slap Shot
I got nothing
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
If the former is true the latter is redundant.
If the former is true the latter is redundant.
cetihcra
New member
If the former is true the latter is redundant.
I think DU's athletic department runs on a deficit, but I can't confirm it. **** private schools. Hockey takes in about $2.5M, I think their overall budget is about $3.2M. Lacrosse might make a little money.
r
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
The bookkeeping is complicated. In some cases, the profit is overstated. For example, arena upkeep may be charged to a generalized facilities budget and traffic control for game days may be charged to a generalized security budget. It makes some sense, because the facilities are used for non-athletic events and some degree of traffic control is needed for non-athletic events, and from a budgeting standpoint, there may be no need to make an exact apportionment. And in some cases the benefit is understated. For example, the security that's required for athletic events may enable the hiring of more full time security staff, which may be a benefit that extends beyond athletic events. Having a rink can provide recreation for students and staff (I'm assuming that if you rent out the rink, it's relatively easy to bookkeep the rents), and if it's a multi-use building, the rink may be used for non-athletic events. It's much cleaner if the school doesn't have its own rink.
The bookkeeping is complicated. In some cases, the profit is overstated. For example, arena upkeep may be charged to a generalized facilities budget and traffic control for game days may be charged to a generalized security budget. It makes some sense, because the facilities are used for non-athletic events and some degree of traffic control is needed for non-athletic events, and from a budgeting standpoint, there may be no need to make an exact apportionment. And in some cases the benefit is understated. For example, the security that's required for athletic events may enable the hiring of more full time security staff, which may be a benefit that extends beyond athletic events. Having a rink can provide recreation for students and staff (I'm assuming that if you rent out the rink, it's relatively easy to bookkeep the rents), and if it's a multi-use building, the rink may be used for non-athletic events. It's much cleaner if the school doesn't have its own rink.
Split-N
All Hail
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
Here's a link that provides some relevant information on the cost/revenue issue: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...partments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority
A long time ago in a galaxy far away, football icons like Woody Hayes, Bud Wilkinson, and Frank Leahy would point with pride to the various campus buildings that were built with football money. That notion is quaint, to say the least, in today's world. Football at most FBS schools is generating plenty of revenue but, instead of operating profits contributing to the institutional good, everything they make (and more) is going back into the football program in the form of outrageous coaching salaries (the outside linebackers coach at Alabama reportedly makes $950K) and platinum-plated training facilities and athlete dorms that are off limits to the rest of the campus community. And most of these programs end up leeching more money from university general funds in the form of increased tuition and/or student activity fees to offset the deficits they inevitably run.
Bear in mind that TV rights fees are largely what has been funding the P5 football spending orgies. So if the layoffs at ESPN are a harbinger of lower rights fees in the future, I'd be concerned that some P5 schools might be tempted to cut hockey, and other sports, in order to keep feeding the football pariah.
Here's a link that provides some relevant information on the cost/revenue issue: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources...partments-make-more-they-spend-still-minority
A long time ago in a galaxy far away, football icons like Woody Hayes, Bud Wilkinson, and Frank Leahy would point with pride to the various campus buildings that were built with football money. That notion is quaint, to say the least, in today's world. Football at most FBS schools is generating plenty of revenue but, instead of operating profits contributing to the institutional good, everything they make (and more) is going back into the football program in the form of outrageous coaching salaries (the outside linebackers coach at Alabama reportedly makes $950K) and platinum-plated training facilities and athlete dorms that are off limits to the rest of the campus community. And most of these programs end up leeching more money from university general funds in the form of increased tuition and/or student activity fees to offset the deficits they inevitably run.
Bear in mind that TV rights fees are largely what has been funding the P5 football spending orgies. So if the layoffs at ESPN are a harbinger of lower rights fees in the future, I'd be concerned that some P5 schools might be tempted to cut hockey, and other sports, in order to keep feeding the football pariah.
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TigerFan86-87
R!!!!...I!!!!!...T!!!!!!
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
But then again, when cable companies wake up and realize that they need to offer a cheaper product if they have any hope of surviving, those rights fees might have to come way down anyhow.
And besides, the D-I hockey programs at schools with big time football "pariahs" are actually making a profit of their own. They might suck the profits from the hockey programs to feed football, but no need to cut the program.
The layoffs at ESPN are due to the rush of cable TV cancellations in favor of streaming, not so much because of the customers' distaste for ESPN or sports broadcasts in particular.
But then again, when cable companies wake up and realize that they need to offer a cheaper product if they have any hope of surviving, those rights fees might have to come way down anyhow.
And besides, the D-I hockey programs at schools with big time football "pariahs" are actually making a profit of their own. They might suck the profits from the hockey programs to feed football, but no need to cut the program.
Sean Pickett
2009 NCAA Champions
Re: NCAA Hockey Administrators to western fans: Drop Dead
DU's average hockey expenses for 2010-16 was $2.65 million, with expenses just over $3 million for 2016.
Sean
According to Denver's EADAs from 2010-16 men's hockey has been a revenue neutral sport with revenue equaling expenses. From looking at public schools' NCAA financial reports I would guess that Denver offsets the difference between the hockey generated revenue and the total expenses with direct institutional support, student fees and possibly indirect institutional support.
DU's average hockey expenses for 2010-16 was $2.65 million, with expenses just over $3 million for 2016.
Sean
cetihcra
New member
Home game. Much like the first 2 rounds of the D3 hockey tourney, they don't require the scrubbing. Also, go DU!
r
Home game. Much like the first 2 rounds of the D3 hockey tourney, they don't require the scrubbing. Also, go DU!
r
1st round of NCAA women is on campus. The boards are scrubbed. But NCAA women's hockey stops at the Minnesota/North Dakota border.