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Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

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Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

KTDC said:
Thanks FiveHole for the post.

I think our 2nd and 3rd line forwards have been having trouble making good decisions on when to shoot and when to pass. Along with they are pressing, clutching the stick too hard, and snake-bit. And maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.....lol

It's hard to believe they can't score better than they have been, though. I'd love to see the dam break second half of the season.

I basically agree with eeyore on the goaltending. We're probably all-in with Peters this season.
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If Peter's gets injured under your senario, then what do you have? 2 practice, roster filling goalies?

If you're going to go down the road of saying a goalie can't stop a shot over her shoulder then don't you also have to question why, at times this year, the starting goalie has had problems with basic stuff like stopping relatively harmless shots from the point?
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

FiveHoleFrenzy said:
If you're going to go down the road of saying a goalie can't stop a shot over her shoulder then don't you also have to question why, at times this year, the starting goalie has had problems with basic stuff like stopping relatively harmless shots from the point?
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I'm don't disagree with you. I was just guessing that Frost is all in on Peters being the best chance for the Gophers this season. We will see, however. Coach Frost makes some interesting decisions at times!
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

KTDC said:
THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT! THE GIANTS WIN THE PENNANT!

It WAS the Gophers they took down on Saturday!
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Poor Ralph Branca. Don't imagine Sidney will have people asking her about that goal for the rest of her life though.
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

I'd like to see coach Frost play May and D'Angelo in some 3rd periods when he feels they have a safe lead, or maybe I should say if and when he ever feels they have a safe lead. If it becomes necessary to play them, it would be better if the "practice goalies" had some game experience.

My wife says we the fans have just become spoiled over the last 7 years with two of the best college goalies that ever played. That's true but still....
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

I remember 6 years ago people whining about Raty and 3 years ago people wanting to open a vein over Leveille. In both cases the problems (alleged or real) were not entirely between the pipes. That is even more true today than it was then, neither of those two could have salvaged all the mistakes that ended behind Peters.

We really have been spoiled
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

BTW - anyone else hear the interview with Nina Rodgers between periods of Saturdays game? Sounds like she is having a ball in Boston. She has 5 goals on the season compared to 8 in 2 years an MN. She is a good kid, her coach said she would be top 6 forward any any team in the country save 2. Playing on the first line she looked OK, still got the good hands & shooters eye but also gets knocked down too easily, still a great addition for any team.
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

KTDC said:
I'm don't disagree with you. I was just guessing that Frost is all in on Peters being the best chance for the Gophers this season. We will see, however. Coach Frost makes some interesting decisions at times!
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Yeah, that was more for Eyeore...Enough said on the goalie. Hopefully everyone on the squad has a good break and comes back in January ready to go. :)
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

HockeyEast33 said:
Haven't watched MN a lick this season. But I'll say (as I have before) that most D1 defensemen are recruited for their offensive ability not their defensive ability (playing good defense isn't particularly valued by many head coaches because they believe they can teach it and some asst coaches (recruiters) don't know what good defense looks like). It is pretty tough at the college level to teach kids that were recruited to rush the puck, score goals, and drive the offense to hang back and play.... well, defense. I suspect that a talented group such as MN defensemen fall into this category...
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I'm skeptical that this the explanation for Minnesota's problems, but it isn't a very good description of the specific problems we're having. What's been plaguing the Gophers recently isn't defensive zone coverage or bad pinches; there's been a few of those, but not anything unusual. Those are the two things that I would expect to be the most likely to manifest in an environment such as you describe. The biggest problem they've been having is something that I wouldn't expect defensemen who grew being good offensively to struggle with particularly: turning the puck over as they try to bring it out of the defensive zone. That's what has killed them against Wisconsin and BU, though the forwards were as much to blame as the defensemen against the former.

My suspicion is that it's an indirect follow on from the lack of secondary scoring. People are trying to do too much, and being careless as a result. I'm hoping that this will be, if not solved, at least alleviated going forward. They get a month to get their heads screwed on, hopefully Cameranesi will be back, and we actually have started to get some secondary scoring the last two weeks. Piazza, Reilly, and Agnew have scored along with a couple of defensemen, and Kate Schipper qualifies as genuinely hot at the moment.

For several reasons, I don't think this is a problem that they will entirely solve, but there are reasons to think it might go back to being something to worry about on the same level that all of the main contenders have something, rather than dooming us.
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

Eeyore said:
I'm skeptical that this the explanation for Minnesota's problems, but it isn't a very good description of the specific problems we're having. What's been plaguing the Gophers recently isn't defensive zone coverage or bad pinches; there's been a few of those, but not anything unusual. Those are the two things that I would expect to be the most likely to manifest in an environment such as you describe. The biggest problem they've been having is something that I wouldn't expect defensemen who grew being good offensively to struggle with particularly: turning the puck over as they try to bring it out of the defensive zone. That's what has killed them against Wisconsin and BU, though the forwards were as much to blame as the defensemen against the former.

My suspicion is that it's an indirect follow on from the lack of secondary scoring. People are trying to do too much, and being careless as a result. I'm hoping that this will be, if not solved, at least alleviated going forward. They get a month to get their heads screwed on, hopefully Cameranesi will be back, and we actually have started to get some secondary scoring the last two weeks. Piazza, Reilly, and Agnew have scored along with a couple of defensemen, and Kate Schipper qualifies as genuinely hot at the moment.

For several reasons, I don't think this is a problem that they will entirely solve, but there are reasons to think it might go back to being something to worry about on the same level that all of the main contenders have something, rather than dooming us.
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Exactly. This posters first sentence basically lets you know about what follows...
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

Eeyore said:
I'm skeptical that this the explanation for Minnesota's problems, but it isn't a very good description of the specific problems we're having. What's been plaguing the Gophers recently isn't defensive zone coverage or bad pinches; there's been a few of those, but not anything unusual. Those are the two things that I would expect to be the most likely to manifest in an environment such as you describe. The biggest problem they've been having is something that I wouldn't expect defensemen who grew being good offensively to struggle with particularly: turning the puck over as they try to bring it out of the defensive zone. That's what has killed them against Wisconsin and BU, though the forwards were as much to blame as the defensemen against the former.

My suspicion is that it's an indirect follow on from the lack of secondary scoring. People are trying to do too much, and being careless as a result. I'm hoping that this will be, if not solved, at least alleviated going forward. They get a month to get their heads screwed on, hopefully Cameranesi will be back, and we actually have started to get some secondary scoring the last two weeks. Piazza, Reilly, and Agnew have scored along with a couple of defensemen, and Kate Schipper qualifies as genuinely hot at the moment.

For several reasons, I don't think this is a problem that they will entirely solve, but there are reasons to think it might go back to being something to worry about on the same level that all of the main contenders have something, rather than dooming us.
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So I was replying to the comment by FiveHoleFrenzy "There is plenty of talent in this group to adjust to more of a defense first attitude that moves the puck out of the zone as a priority and lets the forwards do more of the work through the neutral zone. " Again, I haven't seen MN play but if this is the problem, then I think my commentary is definitely relevant - if a team recruits offensive minded D that drive the offense and score goals, then this is exactly the type of behavior I would expect - a propensity to carry the puck out of the zone rather than move it forward. And that's a hard habit to break for someone who has developed being told to rush the puck and generate offense from D. Just based on my experience.

A great example of this from someone I saw play a fair amount prior to college is Gracen Hirschy of North Dakota. Based on her club and Development Camp (and eventually USA U18) play she was a great offensive defenseman and was heavily recruited (and it appears she has done well at ND but was moved to forward at one point). She would almost always carry the puck out of the zone herself and attack when she played at that level and she was good at it. And every game a couple of times she would generate a beautiful rush and score or nearly score and draw drools from the D1 scouts. What was usually overlooked because of the offensive potential was the fact that almost every game she also would get stripped of the puck in her own zone or leave her partner hanging with no help after rushing forward and turn the puck over in the neutral zone, generating one or more offensive opportunities for the other team. Other D did not enjoy playing with her from what I've heard for exactly that reason. If you recruit a whole bunch of these types of D, then you can't expect them to suddenly convert to a heads up, pass the puck, no turnover defenseman - it's not what you recruited and it's a hard mindset to change.
 
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Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

HockeyEast33 said:
So I was replying to the comment by FiveHoleFrenzy "There is plenty of talent in this group to adjust to more of a defense first attitude that moves the puck out of the zone as a priority and lets the forwards do more of the work through the neutral zone. " Again, I haven't seen MN play but if this is the problem, then I think my commentary is definitely relevant - if a team recruits offensive minded D that drive the offense and score goals, then this is exactly the type of behavior I would expect - a propensity to carry the puck out of the zone rather than move it forward. And that's a hard habit to break for someone who has developed being told to rush the puck and generate offense from D. Just based on my experience.

A great example of this from someone I saw play a fair amount prior to college is Gracen Hirschy of North Dakota. Based on her club and Development Camp (and eventually USA U18) play she was a great offensive defenseman and was heavily recruited (and it appears she has done well at ND but was moved to forward at one point). She would almost always carry the puck out of the zone herself and attack when she played at that level and she was good at it. And every game a couple of times she would generate a beautiful rush and score or nearly score and draw drools from the D1 scouts. What was usually overlooked because of the offensive potential was the fact that almost every game she also would get stripped of the puck in her own zone or leave her partner hanging with no help after rushing forward and turn the puck over in the neutral zone, generating one or more offensive opportunities for the other team. Other D did not enjoy playing with her from what I've heard for exactly that reason. If you recruit a whole bunch of these types of D, then you can't expect them to suddenly convert to a heads up, pass the puck, no turnover defenseman - it's not what you recruited and it's a hard mindset to change.
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Qualifies it again... :)

If you care (probably not since it wouldn't necessarily fit the posted opinion) you could watch the first gold standard video by Rival Films (link following) and pay attention to what Brad Frost is saying just after the 4 minute mark of the video. They definitely are addressing what you think is so difficult to address. Sure it isn't easy but its about wanting to put the work in to "get better"and finding the right recruits who are willing to do said work. Part of the culture that is talked about. As midwest elitist as that sounds it applies for Minnesota (and also Wisconsin) so I think that you will see them make adjustments based on them currently trying to do too much to compensate for the drop off in scoring after the first line.

https://vimeo.com/87148412
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

We are all trying to describe the problems of the defensemen with a few words, when in truth, each one probably has her own unique set of struggles.

I watched Baldwin play in HS and my first thought was, "I hope Joel can break her of the tendency to carry the puck out in front of her own goal." She's gotten better in that regard, but one of her problems is that her talent sometimes gets in her way. She can do a 180 while carrying the puck with one hand on her stick and just blow by people. That leads her to relying too much on having one hand on her stick, and it is hard to play good, fundamental hockey that way. She can do things others can't, but there are many times when it is perfectly fine to just do what everybody else does. There are reasons why the game has evolved such that defensemen do these things. One of her biggest issues this past weekend was she kept trying to pass or shoot the puck through people. She usually has better instincts and slides to the side to create a lane.

Minnesota certainly wasn't guilty of recruiting an offensive D in Wolfe's case, because she was a forward who was moved back to D out of necessity when #2 wound up on Team USA. As such, you can't blame her for some of her flaws, because she's doing the best she can at a position that she didn't grow up playing. When the Gophers have been playing well over the last couple of years, Wolfe has often been a big reason why. She was out with an injury around 4 Nations time. Is she 100% now? I surely don't know, but I'll always remember seeing Anne Schleper's wrists covered with ice and plastic casts after a game where I'd wondered why she kept whiffing on the puck.

Lee has been her partner for much of the last year and a half, and they've done well against the top guns of opponents. Now, both look off. Has something changed? Is one or both hurt? They played a lot of shifts with Hannah last year, and it is a different outlet pass to #22 than if you're out with the third line, as they have been a lot of the time of late. After certain combinations had trouble getting out of their own zone in Grand Forks, the coaches took to playing the Pannek line more when 11 and 5 where on the ice, and that meant 2 & 12 were out with someone else.

It's easy from the stands to say that the problem is all on the D, because she is the one with the puck, but we don't see what she sees. Did they practice all week coming out of their end and making a breakout pass to the wing, but now she decided to change and left the D having to make a quick reaction? Was her D partner not where she was supposed to be? Did the center get hung up in traffic so that she's not an outlet? I don't know. We're so used to seeing it all unfold smoothly. When it doesn't, we decide it is the fault of player "X", but the play could have started to break down much earlier.

The Gophers have won as a team in recent years. If they're going to lose this time, they may as well lose as a team as well. To contend, the Gophers have to play better. All of them.
 
Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

FiveHoleFrenzy said:
Qualifies it again... :)

If you care (probably not since it wouldn't necessarily fit the posted opinion) you could watch the first gold standard video by Rival Films (link following) and pay attention to what Brad Frost is saying just after the 4 minute mark of the video. They definitely are addressing what you think is so difficult to address. Sure it isn't easy but its about wanting to put the work in to "get better"and finding the right recruits who are willing to do said work. Part of the culture that is talked about. As midwest elitist as that sounds it applies for Minnesota (and also Wisconsin) so I think that you will see them make adjustments based on them currently trying to do too much to compensate for the drop off in scoring after the first line.

https://vimeo.com/87148412
Click to expand...

So, despite your obnoxious comment, I watched and listened....and learned nothing particularly relevant to this conversation (although they skated some pretty good herbies during the commentary). "they're used to having the puck on their stick" "we tell them not to do that again" and "its an adjustment period". Great - the coach recruited players that are offensive minded and carry the puck and he wants to change their behavior (this is BTW what I suggested). Based on YOUR comments, it appears he isn't having success in this area with this group of D, who are turning the puck over in their own end trying to skate it out (again - YOUR observation). And the fact that the coaching staff is trying to address it doesn't mean they are being successful - just that they know they have an issue.
 
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Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

HockeyEast33 said:
So, despite your obnoxious comment, I watched and listened....and learned nothing particularly relevant to this conversation (although they skated some pretty good herbies during the commentary). "they're used to having the puck on their stick" "we tell them not to do that again" and "its an adjustment period". Great - the coach recruited players that are offensive minded and carry the puck and he wants to change their behavior (this is BTW what I suggested). Based on YOUR comments, it appears he isn't having success in this area with this group of D, who are turning the puck over in their own end trying to skate it out (again - YOUR observation). And the fact that the coaching staff is trying to address it doesn't mean they are being successful - just that they know they have an issue.
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ARM mentioned Sydney Baldwin who in some ways can be an example of what you are saying. Or Megan Wolfe, who was a forward before she came here. He also mentioned Lee Stecklein, who is not 'offensive minded'. Our discussion has been about the play, and the turnovers, of the 'd' in recent games. Not an ongoing problem in Gopher hockey that we always are filled with defensemen who don't know how to play defense or make a pass to get the puck out of the zone. Your general point might be interesting, or have some merit, or be worthy as a general topic. But our discussion has been about what has been specifically happening lately. Don't be surprised that we are not all ready to throw our coaching staff under the bus because of some recent problems.

We won the last two seasons with the three above mentioned players as main contributors, and not in spite of them. And our current state is not only about the defense. It is certainly possible that some of the current issues with our defensemen may be related to other issues that are taking place around them. And also, we are 15-3-2, so while there are concerns to discuss, a lot of us a still pretty happy as well!
 
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Re: Minnesota Women's Hockey 2016-2017 (aka Season 20)

HockeyEast33 said:
So, despite your obnoxious comment, I watched and listened....and learned nothing particularly relevant to this conversation (although they skated some pretty good herbies during the commentary). "they're used to having the puck on their stick" "we tell them not to do that again" and "its an adjustment period". Great - the coach recruited players that are offensive minded and carry the puck and he wants to change their behavior (this is BTW what I suggested). Based on YOUR comments, it appears he isn't having success in this area with this group of D, who are turning the puck over in their own end trying to skate it out (again - YOUR observation). And the fact that the coaching staff is trying to address it doesn't mean they are being successful - just that they know they have an issue.
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HE33...Whatever dude. Jeez, at least you watched the video and hey...Maybe at some point you could observe Minnesota play and come back to share your wisdom with us shlubs here in flyover country. :)
 
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