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Latest pairwise rankings

That's exactly my point. A mere 25% of games essentially determine PWR outcomes. They become over-weighted.


I agree that they are overweighted if you are playing some game of "which is the best conference." That whole game never appealed to me anyway. It feels like just some form of chest-beating.

However, if you are going to want a completely objective measure of who has had the best results this season, and therefore, who deserves to be in the NCAA tournament, then there is on alternative to those 25% of games being very important. The problem is that they really do set the bar for which conferences are going to have how many teams in the tournament. And, it has been those same 25% of games in the past that has made 4 or 5 teams from NCHC the ones who qualified.

Those of us whose conferences have benefitted in the past can't really complain now.

However, if general, I keep wracking my brain for an alternative system. And, I can't find one from good math. What is called KRACH on this site is numerically perfect, but unsatisfying due to the fact that all the interesting games happen early in the season, and it's just jockeying for position after that.

There is something unfulfilling in the idea that, for example, Wisconsin's game against Brown, (hypothetical, of course) (neither of whom are going anywhere near the tournament) would have a large scale effect on the tournament prospects of Notre Dame, Michigan, Harvard, and Cornell. And, yet, purely numerically, that's the system that we have.

Do you have an alternative?
 
This is the correct answer. Until the Big Ten can bring home some championships, everything else is irrelevant.

Having some great contest about 'which conference is the greatest' when we are talking about the flukiest sport in North America, and the tournament is a one-and-done tournament, seems a little much to me.
 
I agree that they are overweighted if you are playing some game of "which is the best conference." That whole game never appealed to me anyway. It feels like just some form of chest-beating.

However, if you are going to want a completely objective measure of who has had the best results this season, and therefore, who deserves to be in the NCAA tournament, then there is on alternative to those 25% of games being very important. The problem is that they really do set the bar for which conferences are going to have how many teams in the tournament. And, it has been those same 25% of games in the past that has made 4 or 5 teams from NCHC the ones who qualified.

Those of us whose conferences have benefitted in the past can't really complain now.

However, if general, I keep wracking my brain for an alternative system. And, I can't find one from good math. What is called KRACH on this site is numerically perfect, but unsatisfying due to the fact that all the interesting games happen early in the season, and it's just jockeying for position after that.

There is something unfulfilling in the idea that, for example, Wisconsin's game against Brown, (hypothetical, of course) (neither of whom are going anywhere near the tournament) would have a large scale effect on the tournament prospects of Notre Dame, Michigan, Harvard, and Cornell. And, yet, purely numerically, that's the system that we have.

Do you have an alternative?

Agreed. It is as good as it can be. With some warts. Better than most other sports however and much better than sportswriters "voting" on it.
 
Having some great contest about 'which conference is the greatest' when we are talking about the flukiest sport in North America, and the tournament is a one-and-done tournament, seems a little much to me.

The "national champion" could be more accurately described as the "hottest top 16 team at the end of the season".
 
can’t see how krach is any better if that has Michigan st #8 too. Take away their wins vs Long Island, Miami, and Wisconsin (3 last place teams) and sparty is under .500
if krach worked msu should be a lower teens/upper 20s squad.

find mookie a system that weighs road wins over neutral site wins over home wins. And doesn’t reward you for losing in conference cause your conference is “strong”.
 
can’t see how krach is any better if that has Michigan st #8 too. Take away their wins vs Long Island, Miami, and Wisconsin (3 last place teams) and sparty is under .500
if krach worked msu should be a lower teens/upper 20s squad.

find mookie a system that weighs road wins over neutral site wins over home wins. And doesn’t reward you for losing in conference cause your conference is “strong”.

It's literally impossible for KRACH to reward you for losing in conference because KRACH always goes down with any loss, with varying degrees based on opponent of course.
 
can’t see how krach is any better if that has Michigan st #8 too. Take away their wins vs Long Island, Miami, and Wisconsin (3 last place teams) and sparty is under .500
if krach worked msu should be a lower teens/upper 20s squad.

find mookie a system that weighs road wins over neutral site wins over home wins. And doesn’t reward you for losing in conference cause your conference is “strong”.

I think what you want is hard to find, but it is called "KASA" which means "Krach adjusted for site advantage." Cornell used to have this on their website, but I have not found this year's up yet, in spite of looking many times.
 
Personally I am skeptical of a system that awards points to a group of teams, HE in this case, over another group of teams, in this case the CCHA, even though there has not been one game played between anyone in the two groups.
 
Personally I am skeptical of a system that awards points to a group of teams, HE in this case, over another group of teams, in this case the CCHA, even though there has not been one game played between anyone in the two groups.

UMass plays Lake Superior State tomorrow afternoon.
 
Personally I am skeptical of a system that awards points to a group of teams, HE in this case, over another group of teams, in this case the CCHA, even though there has not been one game played between anyone in the two groups.

What do you mean by "awarding points"? Neither the RPI part of the pairwise, nor the KRACH "award points'. Both of these systems are attempting to overcome the problem in college hockey, which is that the conference system makes things like "your own record" unreliable in comparing teams because teams play 60% plus of their schedule against their conference.
 
What do you mean by "awarding points"? Neither the RPI part of the pairwise, nor the KRACH "award points'. Both of these systems are attempting to overcome the problem in college hockey, which is that the conference system makes things like "your own record" unreliable in comparing teams because teams play 60% plus of their schedule against their conference.

Well let's say you have a numerator and a denominator. the higher the numerator/ denominator ratio, the higher the score, so what I mean is you accumulate the number in the numerator by wins or whatever metric you choose. Anyway, making that number higher is what I mean by accumulating points. I guess it's a bad choice of words. What I am getting at is comparing teams via how they did vs a common opponent, let's say Clarkson for example, is really fraught. Clarkson is playing way better now than they were early, yet the numerator in the equation you get by beating them at different times is the same. It was WAY easier to beat them in october than now. Those two games are no where near the same.
In the same way if HE plays zero games vs the CCHA, then how on earth is the result of common opponent games played in vastly different time frames relevant. IMHO then, common opponent weighting is too high. If league A wants to have higher priority over league B when it comes to the post season, league A should play them head to head, at least some of the time.Otherwise I'm skeptical of the decision making process.
 
Well let's say you have a numerator and a denominator. the higher the numerator/ denominator ratio, the higher the score, so what I mean is you accumulate the number in the numerator by wins or whatever metric you choose. Anyway, making that number higher is what I mean by accumulating points. I guess it's a bad choice of words. What I am getting at is comparing teams via how they did vs a common opponent, let's say Clarkson for example, is really fraught. Clarkson is playing way better now than they were early, yet the numerator in the equation you get by beating them at different times is the same. It was WAY easier to beat them in october than now. Those two games are no where near the same.
In the same way if HE plays zero games vs the CCHA, then how on earth is the result of common opponent games played in vastly different time frames relevant. IMHO then, common opponent weighting is too high. If league A wants to have higher priority over league B when it comes to the post season, league A should play them head to head, at least some of the time.Otherwise I'm skeptical of the decision making process.

Hey, I'm open to any and all ideas. What I know is that the KRACH system can, in reverse, predict the record of every team in the nation considering who they played, and the 'odds' that the system gives them of winning the game. That's pretty good.

PWR I don't like as much because it don't think it's mathematically sound. There are too many 'fudge factors'. Oh, we want a bonus for beating highly rated teams? OK, we invent one. We find out that certain games, even if you win them, decrease your RPI rating. OK, we'll just randomly delete those games. Oh, and why is it 25/21/54. That's an odd percentage. The whole thing is too fabricated for me, although in the end it comes out close to KRACH, which is pretty good.

Now, if you are only talking about the common opponents part of the PWR, I say that.......almost every comparison anymore is determined by RPI alone. The number of odd comparisons each year is very small, so that the CommOpp component doesn't factor in very much.

However, overall, I think that this system places too much emphasis on the non-conference games, because that is the only way to 'sort' the teams. That's big drawback. If you didn't have a big mass of teams (that's a conference) called A, another one B....all insulated and then playing a few scattered teams from the other conferences, and instead had a much more random mix, it would be better. However, you can't really force schools to play other schools, and the reason for conferences anyway is to make scheduling easy.

You could make an edict like: No more than 24 conference games. That would help.

But when, like this year, the Big 10 is 45-15 against OOC competition, it's hard to know how to adjust for that, even if it's only going to end up being, on average 25% of the schedule.


You could also do something like, before anyone has played a game, create an allotment, like:
B10 - 4 teams
NCHC - 4 teams
ECAC - 2 teams
HEA - 4 teams
AHA - 1 team
CCHA - 1 team

But that's not really right either.

The fact is that it is impossible to create a system which accommodates both the fact that, as you say, playing Clarkson in November and playing them in February are two different things, without also including something like the 'eye test', which makes things subjective, and we don't want that.
 
Well what we have seems to be orders of magnitude better than a much higher dollar sport that will remain nameless. Just think if two "storied" teams played in an otherwise mediocre league (and perhaps they only, I'm just picking numbers here - play 2 or 3 "ranked" opponents all year, including each other!) and due to their famous status achieve very, very high rankings by vote. High enough that their mediocre conference ends up providing two of the four teams chosen to vie for a national championship. And both of them lose their first game. That would be a terribly embarrassing situation. I'm glad we don't have that at least.
 
Anecdotal GLI results:

Bottom- half NCHC team blow out both top and bottom half CCHA teams
Top Half Big 10 lose to top and bottom half CCHA teams

NCHC Overall 2-0
CCHA Overall 2-2
Big 10 Overall 0-2

I know it means nothing. But it's interesting.
 
Hey, I'm open to any and all ideas. What I know is that the KRACH system can, in reverse, predict the record of every team in the nation considering who they played, and the 'odds' that the system gives them of winning the game. That's pretty good.

PWR I don't like as much because it don't think it's mathematically sound. There are too many 'fudge factors'. Oh, we want a bonus for beating highly rated teams? OK, we invent one. We find out that certain games, even if you win them, decrease your RPI rating. OK, we'll just randomly delete those games. Oh, and why is it 25/21/54. That's an odd percentage. The whole thing is too fabricated for me, although in the end it comes out close to KRACH, which is pretty good.

Now, if you are only talking about the common opponents part of the PWR, I say that.......almost every comparison anymore is determined by RPI alone. The number of odd comparisons each year is very small, so that the CommOpp component doesn't factor in very much.

However, overall, I think that this system places too much emphasis on the non-conference games, because that is the only way to 'sort' the teams. That's big drawback. If you didn't have a big mass of teams (that's a conference) called A, another one B....all insulated and then playing a few scattered teams from the other conferences, and instead had a much more random mix, it would be better. However, you can't really force schools to play other schools, and the reason for conferences anyway is to make scheduling easy.

You could make an edict like: No more than 24 conference games. That would help.

But when, like this year, the Big 10 is 45-15 against OOC competition, it's hard to know how to adjust for that, even if it's only going to end up being, on average 25% of the schedule.


You could also do something like, before anyone has played a game, create an allotment, like:
B10 - 4 teams
NCHC - 4 teams
ECAC - 2 teams
HEA - 4 teams
AHA - 1 team
CCHA - 1 team

But that's not really right either.

The fact is that it is impossible to create a system which accommodates both the fact that, as you say, playing Clarkson in November and playing them in February are two different things, without also including something like the 'eye test', which makes things subjective, and we don't want that.


There isn't any system that does or can recognize changes in a given team's ability over time. It's the Heisenberg Principle applied to hockey.
 
There isn't any system that does or can recognize changes in a given team's ability over time. It's the Heisenberg Principle applied to hockey.

Yes. I totally agree with that. Totally. That's why we are stuck with a very imperfect system for choosing the NCAA field, although I think it's as good as it could get. It's completely objective, and everyone knows how it works going in, so there are no surprises.

I happen to think, personally, that the committee's procedure to create the bracket could use some work. But, even then, hockey is a very funny game. Teams get hot, and they go cold. It's the nature of the puck.
 
Well what we have seems to be orders of magnitude better than a much higher dollar sport that will remain nameless. Just think if two "storied" teams played in an otherwise mediocre league (and perhaps they only, I'm just picking numbers here - play 2 or 3 "ranked" opponents all year, including each other!) and due to their famous status achieve very, very high rankings by vote. High enough that their mediocre conference ends up providing two of the four teams chosen to vie for a national championship. And both of them lose their first game. That would be a terribly embarrassing situation. I'm glad we don't have that at least.

You could include basketball in that list as well. The only reason they mostly fly under the radar is the quantity of teams they let in. Even when basketball field was 64 teams, there was a lot of controversy as to who was left out because a lot of it was based on what the committee decided to look at that year. No one knows what that criterial was until after the committee made their picks.

Overall hockey has the clearest/cleanest system. The formula says who is in and out. Everyone by know knows what is important to Pairwise. Beat the teams you should beat, win some of the games you shouldn't, and don't lose too many games. It helps a lot if your conference has a wining OOC record. Be high enough in the Pairwise rankings to outlast the autobids who are outside of the Pairwise top 16. If that doesn't work, win the conference tournament autobid. Which, IMO, is the best/only way to properly assess the change in a team's performance over time. How many teams have played themselves in/out based on their conference tournament performance? This keeps the human factor out of the selection, which as a CCHA fan, I appreciate.

Unless college hockey expands the the field to every team, no matter what criteria/formula is used there will never be a perfect selection formula/criteria. Even then people will complain with games that go to additional OTs and make their team "tired" for the the next game.
 
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We could just forgo the math and let the sports guy at the Lowell Sun pick the tournament field every season. ;)

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