Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

[Craig P.]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

He and I went through our company's standard Excel workbook (yes, workbook - probably about 20 tabs ) for designing various relief systems as part of my training.

We have Excel templates that we use in addition to the software I develop.

I know I'm going to be interfacing with him quite a bit in the coming months. We're putting in an enclosed HF blowdown tank. That's when everyone's pencil gets sharpened and there is no tolerance for error. Plus there's the whole issue of needing to use balanced bellows valves and different vessels venting to the same blowdown tank but are rated for different pressures. Fugly stuff.

Mmm, HF. Fun stuff.

I seem to recall there being some concern with bellows valves in a service where it's important to maintain containment. I may want to refresh my memory with folks around the office tomorrow.

I'm a little surprised you think it's a big deal to have vessels with different pressure ratings tied into the same collection system. Is there a potential issue there that I'm missing?

 

[Hopkinja]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

In 29 years I've sized more relief valves than I can even count.

Good relief valves (there are cheap ones) will open between 90% to 100% of design set point pressure. However, you can size the orifice in it based on a inlet pressure of 10% greater than the set pressure, but the set point should not exceed the design pressure. In that way the pressure may build up to 10% over the design set point (the 10% accumulation already discussed). But it opens at or below the design pressure.

This 10% accumulation is OK since all coded vessels are pressure tested to 25-50% over their design pressure per ASME VIII vessel code, and all piping systems are tested to at least 10% over the design pressure per ASME B31-3 piping code. And as some noted, for a pool fire, a 21% accumulation is allowed instead of 10%. Also, if the 10% of set would be less than 3 psi, then 3 psi is allowed.

Also if you have multiple redundant devices, you are allowed to set the second device at some pressure above the vessel design pressure, but I'm not sure what sets that pressure.

Now for what it's worth, my company also evaluates a condition more stringent than code. If the relief device does not operate properly and the source of overpressure has the potential to pressurize the vessel beyond its failure point, we install redundant relief devices. That's because we're the safest major chemical company in the industry.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

you can size the orifice

That's what she said. (Emphasis hers.)

Just keepin' it classy.

In other news, possibly the most hard-core troll of all time. Yikers.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

Status report from Japan Today.

Fukushima No. 1 plant

—Reactor No. 1 - Suspended after quake, cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, building damaged Saturday by hydrogen explosion, seawater being pumped in.

—Reactor No. 2 - Suspended after quake, cooling failure, seawater being pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, building housing reactor damaged Monday by blast at reactor No. 3, damage to containment vessel on Tuesday, potential meltdown feared.

—Reactor No. 3 - Suspended after quake, cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater being pumped in, building housing reactor damaged Monday by hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby on Tuesday, plume of smoke observed Wednesday, damage to containment vessel likely.

—Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire Tuesday possibly caused by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, abnormal temperature rise in spent-fuel storage pool but water level not observed, fire observed Wednesday at building housing reactor, no water poured in to cool pool, spraying of boric acid being considered.

—Reactors No. 5, No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck, temperatures slightly rising in spent-fuel storage pools.

Fukushima No. 2 plant

—Reactors No. 1, No. 2, No. 4 - Suspended after quake, cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

—Reactor No. 3 - Suspended after quake, cold shutdown.

 

[unofan]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

What really gets me is the anti nuclear people saying 'this is why we shouldn't have nukes'. I'll take them a little more seriously when they start demanding Japan build a 30 foot seawall north the south to prevent tsunamis from wiping entire villages off the map.

Yeah, I was worried this would set nuclear power in this country back 10 years when this first happened. Now I'm thinking it's about 100 years.

Paraphrasing here, but "a person is smart; people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

Yeah, I was worried this would set nuclear power in this country back 10 years when this first happened. Now I'm thinking it's about 100 years.

Paraphrasing here, but "a person is smart; people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."

Non-nuclear pundits have a few things going for them. They can't do math, they don't understand the global scale of the energy market, and they think energy should be consequence free. The same could be said for our green energy hypocrits too, but thats a digression best left for another thread.

Sadly, this insident is going to set the nuclear industry back but worse of all are the people nearby who might get hurt. Nothing comes without its cost.

Also it appears we have some knowledgable folks posting here. Glad to see. Thanks for the insight!

Edit: leave it to these clowns to capitolize on this to start pushing their ideologies. The green movement is such a crock of ****. http://www.greenpeace.org/usa/en/ Front page. http://www.sierraclub.org/ Same with these *******s.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

Sadly, this insident is going to set the nuclear industry back but worse of all are the people nearby who might get hurt. Nothing comes without its cost.

And the more we talk about the small number of mights, we lose focus on the millions who did.

Remember, there was an earthquke and tsunami that killed a lot of people, and displaced a whole lot more. Water, food, roads, power- there's a whole lot more to this than the damaged reactors.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

greenpeace

I'm not anti nuclear, in fact, I'm overwhelming in favor of it, but wow. this is getting bad in Japan. its not so much the death toll, as the fact that a lot of this land may be uninhabitable for a long long time. and its going to set the industry way back. I would love to see the US go nuclear and let the military run it. especially the Navy. these guys KNOW nuclear!!

we are looking at touring Trinity site in April. that will make us immune from all Japanese radiation, right?

 

[alfablue]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

greenpeace

I'm not anti nuclear, in fact, I'm overwhelming in favor of it, but wow. this is getting bad in Japan. its not so much the death toll, as the fact that a lot of this land may be uninhabitable for a long long time. and its going to set the industry way back. I would love to see the US go nuclear and let the military run it. especially the Navy. these guys KNOW nuclear!!

we are looking at touring Trinity site in April. that will make us immune from all Japanese radiation, right?

I see the point, but we may want to ask the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about long term radiation from fallout. I'm willing to bet that they have some experience. Both are very large cities, currently.


On a much more sad note, I read an AP report that they are giving up hope finding the 8000 who are officially listed as missing.... And as of recently, the offical death toll was just over 4300....

And while I keep bringing up half a million displaced, the offical number living in temporary shelters is around 430,000..... Ugh.

Water, food, shelter, heat, etc. One wonders how long it will take to get a sustainable infrustructure back. And then they can get back to cleaning up and rebuilding.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

I see the point, but we may want to ask the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki about long term radiation from fallout. I'm willing to bet that they have some experience. Both are very large cities, currently.


On a much more sad note, I read an AP report that they are giving up hope finding the 8000 who are officially listed as missing.... And as of recently, the offical death toll was just over 4300....

And while I keep bringing up half a million displaced, the offical number living in temporary shelters is around 430,000..... Ugh.

Water, food, shelter, heat, etc. One wonders how long it will take to get a sustainable infrustructure back. And then they can get back to cleaning up and rebuilding.

and all this in the worlds third largest economy. on the good side the people are hanging tough and helping each other out. no riots, no looting, minimal panic.

 

[DrDemento]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

and all this in the worlds third largest economy. on the good side the people are hanging tough and helping each other out. no riots, no looting, minimal panic.

Does anyone believe that the same could be said here if something like this happened?

 

[walrus]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

Does anyone believe that the same could be said here if something like this happened?

Katrina?

 

[NMU8405]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

Katrina?

I dont think Katrina even comes close to what is happening over in Japan.

 

[walrus]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

I dont think Katrina even comes close to what is happening over in Japan.

No doubt and look at the reaction in comparison

US Nuke experts are saying its pretty dire over there now, maybe 2 breached reators and the spent fuel rods are/ may be dry. The amount of radiation released is way more the Gov't is letting on

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

the US is offering drones to fly over the reactors and get pictures. ya think? the TEPCo executives need to go. yesterday.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

On a more positive note- a saki to the engineers and architects who designed some of the buildings.

Remember some of the footage of the tsunami? A lot I saw was from an elevated location in a building. This building first survived a major earthquake, and THEN survived a pretty punishing tsunami. Thus saving countless lives.

Darned impressive, if but a minor silver lining.

 

[Biddco]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

On a more positive note- a saki to the engineers and architects who designed some of the buildings.

Remember some of the footage of the tsunami? A lot I saw was from an elevated location in a building. This building first survived a major earthquake, and THEN survived a pretty punishing tsunami. Thus saving countless lives.

Darned impressive, if but a minor silver lining.

I keep reminding myself that 120,000 plus people died in Indonesia 5 years ago. Shows what living in a postindustrialized country (that is prepared for these sorts of things) will do for you.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

In 29 years I've sized more relief valves than I can even count.

Good relief valves (there are cheap ones) will open between 90% to 100% of design set point pressure. However, you can size the orifice in it based on a inlet pressure of 10% greater than the set pressure, but the set point should not exceed the design pressure. In that way the pressure may build up to 10% over the design set point (the 10% accumulation already discussed). But it opens at or below the design pressure.

This 10% accumulation is OK since all coded vessels are pressure tested to 25-50% over their design pressure per ASME VIII vessel code, and all piping systems are tested to at least 10% over the design pressure per ASME B31-3 piping code. And as some noted, for a pool fire, a 21% accumulation is allowed instead of 10%. Also, if the 10% of set would be less than 3 psi, then 3 psi is allowed.

Also if you have multiple redundant devices, you are allowed to set the second device at some pressure above the vessel design pressure, but I'm not sure what sets that pressure.

Now for what it's worth, my company also evaluates a condition more stringent than code. If the relief device does not operate properly and the source of overpressure has the potential to pressurize the vessel beyond its failure point, we install redundant relief devices. That's because we're the safest major chemical company in the industry.

According to the ASMV BAPV Section VIII, rated valves are not allowed to open below the set point.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

We have Excel templates that we use in addition to the software I develop.

Mmm, HF. Fun stuff.

I seem to recall there being some concern with bellows valves in a service where it's important to maintain containment. I may want to refresh my memory with folks around the office tomorrow.

I'm a little surprised you think it's a big deal to have vessels with different pressure ratings tied into the same collection system. Is there a potential issue there that I'm missing?

Let me know what you hear aobut bellows and containment. I feel like that's something to pay attention to when we're talking about HF.

It's not an issue so much as everything has to be carefully designed since we have to "derate" the enclosed tank. We have a preliminary blowdown tank relief set point at 100 psig (being fed by a couple 150 psig and one 300 psig vessel). When you do are trying to depressurize the vapors, it matters with regards to how large the blowdown tank is. It's not like it's a huge deal, but it requires extra attention.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 Magnitude Quake, Tsunami Warnings In Effect

helicopters are dropping water on nuclear plants.