Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

[alfablue]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

They’re still there. They just don’t know what to call them according to this.

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2016-06-30/cic-drops-name-raise-visibility.html

But they are not listed on the member list- https://www.btaa.org/about/member-universities

If they are really part, JH can be part, too.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

They aren’t a formal member, but they are still part of the collaboration best I can tell.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

I'm of the opinion that we should extend a full CIC invite to John Hopkins.

You do know that Johns Hopkins is DIII except for lacrosse, in which they play up?

ND is much closer to satisfying UAA and BTAA academic requirements now than 10 years ago and their sports programs would enhance the branding, popularity and quality of Big Ten sports. They will get an invite in the near future.

I believe you mean AAU. Speaking of, I'm still waiting for the the BIG and BTAA to invite BU to join since they are a member of the AAU and the would add to the geographic footprint of the B1G (which I hear is very important , or else Iowa State would be a strong candidate as they are also a member of the AAU).

Sean

 

[SteveO]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

No, I mean both.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Also, Chicago is one of the top universities in the world and a former full time big ten member.

JHU is only one of those. The BTAA is a gigantic carrot to dangle in front of universities. They aren’t going to give it out to anyone just because they are a good school. There has to be a benefit to all member institutions.

There’s also the infrastructure costs as well. Most of these universities have high speed fiber (often privately owned by the institutions) connecting their campuses. There is also the logistical issues that come from sharing research and entire libraries.

JHU would be an excellent addition to the BTAA someday. But I’m not sure it’s time has come yet. They would definitely need to move up in their athletic presence and likely would need to agree to invest in the infrastructure for collaboration.

I have a feeling the big ten would love to see them make the jump. JHU pulls in something like $2-3 billion in research a year. That’s more than any other school in the conference. And it’s not close. The only schools that really fit the profile of full member candidates are Texas, UNC, Duke, Pittsburgh, Georgia Tech. And most of those aren’t perfect fits either. There are some west coast schools as well, but the big ten hasn’t annexed west of the Rockies. Yet.

 

[Eddie Schorr]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

There is no CIC. CIC = BTAA now. JH is not competitive in all sports to qualify for full membership in the B1G. ND is much closer to satisfying UAA and BTAA academic requirements now than 10 years ago and their sports programs would enhance the branding, popularity and quality of Big Ten sports. They will get an invite in the near future.

Notre Dame is still decades away. They've built up some decent professional schools (law & business), but if you really dig down into where their doctoral programs rank, faculty quality, research infrastructure, they are nowhere near being an AAU university. And to get into the AAU, you don't need to just be better than the lowest ranked AAU schools, you probably need to be at least somewhere in the middle third in the hard and soft metrics. Hell, Georgia Tech only recently received an invite (because they were viewed as too one-dimensional), and they're miles ahead of Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very good undergraduate college, extremely hard to get into and provides a fiercely loyal alumni network to tap into after graduation (provided Brian Kelley doesn't kill you). It, however, is not a serious comprehensive university.

All that being said, of course the Big Ten would overlook all of it should the domers ever want to join the conference for all sports.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Notre Dame is still decades away. They've built up some decent professional schools (law & business), but if you really dig down into where their doctoral programs rank, faculty quality, research infrastructure, they are nowhere near being an AAU university. And to get into the AAU, you don't need to just be better than the lowest ranked AAU schools, you probably need to be at least somewhere in the middle third in the hard and soft metrics. Hell, Georgia Tech only recently received an invite (because they were viewed as too one-dimensional), and they're miles ahead of Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very good undergraduate college, extremely hard to get into and provides a fiercely loyal alumni network to tap into after graduation (provided Brian Kelley doesn't kill you). It, however, is not a serious comprehensive university.

All that being said, of course the Big Ten would overlook all of it should the domers ever want to join the conference for all sports.

I don’t know. I mean they probably would accept them, but the academic side would need to approve it as well. Not just the ADs. That’s a high hurdle to clear.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Sounds like Notre Dame are the suckers for their deal.

Their NBC deal for football is up in 2025. At that point they will have BTN type money from ACC TV which they will then leverage against their next football TV deal with NBC, probably making it something even ridiculously larger. Right now they get the best of both worlds -- conference money all the time in one of the best MBB conferences, while still retaining the home rights to what is generally considered to be the most valuable team in college athletics. Obviously the B1G would never in a million years make them a deal like that.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Notre Dame is still decades away. They've built up some decent professional schools (law & business), but if you really dig down into where their doctoral programs rank, faculty quality, research infrastructure, they are nowhere near being an AAU university. And to get into the AAU, you don't need to just be better than the lowest ranked AAU schools, you probably need to be at least somewhere in the middle third in the hard and soft metrics. Hell, Georgia Tech only recently received an invite (because they were viewed as too one-dimensional), and they're miles ahead of Notre Dame. Notre Dame is a very good undergraduate college, extremely hard to get into and provides a fiercely loyal alumni network to tap into after graduation (provided Brian Kelley doesn't kill you). It, however, is not a serious comprehensive university.

All that being said, of course the Big Ten would overlook all of it should the domers ever want to join the conference for all sports.

Decades?? No. In terms of top research universities in the US, Notre Dame and the University of Illlinois are currently very close in research funding and output.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Decades?? No. In terms of top research universities in the US, Notre Dame and the University of Illlinois are currently very close in research funding and output.

No, they aren't. And it's not close.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingBySource&ds=herd

Notre Dame is 104th at $202 million. The next lowest is Nebraska at 80 and $294 million. Which doesn't include the medical program in their system. Everyone else is in the to 50.

Institution				Rank	%ile	$1,000s of R&D
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor	2	1	1,436,448
University of Wisconsin-Madison		6	1	1,157,680
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	15	2	910,181
Pennsylvania State University		21	3	825,561
Ohio State University, The		22	3	818,464
Northwestern University			29	4	713,491
Rutgers, The State University 		32	4	630,212
University of Illinois  		33	4	625,180
Michigan State University		36	4	613,369
Purdue University, West Lafayette	37	4	606,302
University of Maryland, College Park	41	5	539,388
Indiana University, Bloomington		45	5	508,766
University of Iowa			48	6	473,362
University of Chicago, The		53	6	420,997
University of Nebraska-Lincoln		80	9	294,856

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

The other thing I'd mention in this deal is that Notre Dame could literally heat their dorms by burning piles of cash and never run out. They're sitting on one of the largest endowments in the US at 12 billion dollars. Not only do they have more cash than any B1G school , (mostly by 2x -3x - MI is within a billion or two) but with less than 9k students, their endowment just dwarfs all but H-Y-P on a per student basis. Their last round of fundraising had a target of $700+ million and they ended up with $2 billion...

I get why they are attractive to the B1G in athletics, although perhaps less so on the big research end of things, but why would ND want to join the group when they are now completely autonomous and rolling in massive piles of ca$h all by themselves?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

The other thing I'd mention in this deal is that Notre Dame could literally heat their dorms by burning piles of cash and never run out. They're sitting on one of the largest endowments in the US at 12 billion dollars. Not only do they have more cash than any B1G school , (mostly by 2x -3x - MI is within a billion or two) but with less than 9k students, their endowment just dwarfs all but H-Y-P on a per student basis. Their last round of fundraising had a target of $700+ million and they ended up with $2 billion...

I get why they are attractive to the B1G in athletics, although perhaps less so on the big research end of things, but why would ND want to join the group when they are now completely autonomous and rolling in massive piles of ca$h all by themselves?

Michigan is ahead in the latest rankings:
Michigan - 10.9
Notre Dame - 9.4
OSU - 4.2

Notre dame is overall ~10th now.

But you aren't wrong at all otherwise. You might even be understating it. When Notre Dame has a football game, the South Bend airport closes one runway so they can park all the private jets that fly in for the weekend. When the University of Minnesota needs $200 million for athletics, it can take years to raise. When Notre Dame needs that amount, they could raise it in a month, or weekend.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Michigan is ahead in the latest rankings:
Michigan - 10.9
Notre Dame - 9.4
OSU - 4.2

Notre dame is overall ~10th now.

But you aren't wrong at all otherwise. You might even be understating it. When Notre Dame has a football game, the South Bend airport closes one runway so they can park all the private jets that fly in for the weekend. When the University of Minnesota needs $200 million for athletics, it can take years to raise. When Notre Dame needs that amount, they could raise it in a month, or weekend.

Notre Dame 11.8 billion year ending June 2017

Michigan 10.9 billion year ending June 2017

Notre Dame has one of the best managed funds in the country so they easily have $12 billion+ and are likely rapidly approaching $13 billion by this year end. But yes, if you are interested in donating millions to ND you probably actually have to stand in a line at the window.


I'd also add that some of the research $$ deficiency is a matter of scale. ND only has around 2200 graduate students in total and a quarter of those are lawyers. So given that, they do pretty well when compared on a per capita basis with the big players. They are investing heavily in research, but I don't know that their long term vision is to become like Hopkins, where 75% of enrollment is graduate students. I'd say they would probably want to scale up more like a Harvard-Yale, which they won't approach the $$ without a med school, but in that general direction within their areas of expertise.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

No, they aren't. And it's not close.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=rankingBySource&ds=herd

Notre Dame is 104th at $202 million. The next lowest is Nebraska at 80 and $294 million. Which doesn't include the medical program in their system. Everyone else is in the to 50.

Institution				Rank	%ile	$1,000s of R&D
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor	2	1	1,436,448
University of Wisconsin-Madison		6	1	1,157,680
University of Minnesota, Twin Cities	15	2	910,181
Pennsylvania State University		21	3	825,561
Ohio State University, The		22	3	818,464
Northwestern University			29	4	713,491
Rutgers, The State University 		32	4	630,212
University of Illinois  		33	4	625,180
Michigan State University		36	4	613,369
Purdue University, West Lafayette	37	4	606,302
University of Maryland, College Park	41	5	539,388
Indiana University, Bloomington		45	5	508,766
University of Iowa			48	6	473,362
University of Chicago, The		53	6	420,997
University of Nebraska-Lincoln		80	9	294,856

According to current overall ratings for the top 50 research institutions they are. I think we're working with different measurement criteria.

The ranking was determined based on the following criteria:

• The university has at least one research center or institute that functions under the jurisdiction of the university, but as a separate entity. (35%)
• There are opportunities for undergraduates to participate directly in research. (35%)
• The university receives federal research funds. (30%)

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Rankings from places like US News are useless. Hard numbers like the NSF are better indicators.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

[

I'd also add that some of the research $$ deficiency is a matter of scale. ND only has around 2200 graduate students in total and a quarter of those are lawyers. So given that, they do pretty well when compared on a per capita basis with the big players. They are investing heavily in research, but I don't know that their long term vision is to become like Hopkins, where 75% of enrollment is graduate students. I'd say they would probably want to scale up more like a Harvard-Yale, which they won't approach the $$ without a med school, but in that general direction within their areas of expertise.

That’s fair, but it’s also not the measure the BTAA is going to look at. It’s going to be raw dollars and breadth of field. Until they decide to be a research institution like a big ten school and focus their efforts on grad, post-grad, and NSF-level research, they might be on the outside looking in.

The land-grant BTAA members are juggernauts in engineering, science, medicine, math, and agriculture.

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

That’s fair, but it’s also not the measure the BTAA is going to look at. It’s going to be raw dollars and breadth of field. Until they decide to be a research institution like a big ten school and focus their efforts on grad, post-grad, and NSF-level research, they might be on the outside looking in.

The land-grant BTAA members are juggernauts in engineering, science, medicine, math, and agriculture.

Right. So...

ND would have to take a cut in their pretty significant athletics $$ to join the B1G.

Although ND doesn't really need the money either way.

The BTAA wouldn't gain massive research cash flow and prestige from ND's small by comparison graduate facilities.

The B1G is all massive land grant public research institutions.

In the ACC, ND is associated with private schools Duke, Miami, Syracuse, Wake, BC, Clemson, plus publics N.Carolina, Virginia, GaTech, etc., many of which are very compatible with ND top tier athletics, and some of which are research powerhouses relative to their size like ND, and some of which are academically elite in ways very similar to ND.

And the ACC shares revenue while ceding ND rights to their own FB $$.

The whole idea is square peg - round hole. And not because one side is better/worse than the other -- they're just very different types of institutions with different goals. They don't fit together other than geographically.

 

[Eddie Schorr]

Decades?? No. In terms of top research universities in the US, Notre Dame and the University of Illlinois are currently very close in research funding and output.

Not even close. U of I total/federal research finding 721M/460M. Notre Dame: 156M/80M

National Academy Members on faculty. Illinois-55. Notre Dame-3

https://mup.asu.edu/sites/default/files/mup-2015-top-american-research-universities-annual-report.pdf

And if you really dig down into the NRC's ranking of doctoral programs, Notre Dame is nowhere near U of I or any Big Ten school not named Nebraska.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

That's some old time statistics.
Pi$s on old time statistics.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

All I can say is a number of points and issues have been brought up on this thread which I had not considered or was generally aware of. A lot of interesting things to know.