Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

[gopher wes]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

They don't bring new TV markets/revenue to the table? (Which helps explain Rutgers and Maryland...)

That's fair.

Iowa state isn't close. Its rated #115 in academics, that's at or near the bottom of the B1G. Its a second school in a small state - little new fanbase. Its in a modestly declining area of the country. It doesn't have a great football program - see Nebraska or even Rutgers.

Each spot in the B1G is precious and once offered will probably never be rescinded. So the decisions to add Penn St, Marlyand, Rutgers and Nebraska - were extremely well thought through from academic, athletic and national footprint points of view.

They have a decent football program, seems to be on an upturn IMO. They have had an above average basketball program in recent years. Nebraska has a great fanbase, but they haven't been relevant since the 90s. Rutgers a doesn't have a great anything.....c'mon man.....

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Yeah, but they all have world-class research. Even Nebraska, which has one of the best infectious disease programs in the country.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Without doing any research as to whether Iowa St fits in the B1G academically, I've always wondered why they aren't in the B1G geographically. Built in rivalry with Iowa, old rivalry from Nebraska's time in the Big 12, and a new border battle team in Minnesota.

Doesn't give the B1G an additional media footprint. Same reason the B1G would NEVER bring in Cincy or UMD or U of Penn or another school from Illinois or Marquette, etc.. And I don't think ISU has good enough credentials in the research or academics departments.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

LOL- some one negatively rep'ed me for this post.

I honestly didn't know this fact until I started looking into school budgets. It's very true for all of the schools I looked into at the time- research trumps athletics all over the country, including schools that are not actually top research universities.

It's more true for Michigan, who has a $100M athletic budget, and $1B research budget. Mind you, there are only a handful of schools out there who have bigger athletic budgets than Michigan.

I don't understand how people think there's that much money in entertainment (sports) relative to research. Think about football, even- they play at home what 8 times a year, and up to 13 games on TV? Compare that with the research facilities going on all year round?

Money is in the academics and research. Pride is sports.

I agree totally alfablue, and why I gave you pos rep on that post, I believe it was that one? But I didn't know if the research taking precedence over athletics was a nationwide thing or not. If you talk to SEC football fans, you'd never know that was the case, lol. Good to know it is though, as sports are meaningless in the bigger picture, but mankinds health and welfare are far from meaningless.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

I agree totally alfablue, and why I gave you pos rep on that post, I believe it was that one? But I didn't know if the research taking precedence over athletics was a nationwide thing or not. If you talk to SEC football fans, you'd never know that was the case, lol. Good to know it is though, as sports are meaningless in the bigger picture, but mankinds health and welfare are far from meaningless.

I wouldn't call it meaningless, entertainment does have value.

But it's marginal relative to other things.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

That's fair.


They have a decent football program, seems to be on an upturn IMO. They have had an above average basketball program in recent years. Nebraska has a great fanbase, but they haven't been relevant since the 90s. Rutgers a doesn't have a great anything.....c'mon man.....

Just a few years before Rutgers got the invite to join the B1G, they had 2 Top 25 like seasons in football in a 3-4 year period. I remember because I was debating a Cincy fb fan who was trying hard to brag up any and every Big East success in fb and bb. So when the B1G was checking out their resume, it looked better football wise than it has since they joined the B1G. That might say more about the quality of competition in the B1G compared to the old Big East than it says anything about Rutgers. And it was their media footprint and mostly, their research that got them the invite, not their sports.

 

[FredsDeadFriend]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

I wouldn't call it meaningless, entertainment does have value.

But it's marginal relative to other things.

Well alfablue, I'm a huge sports fan, and movie fan and music fan, so I would love to agree with you that entertainment has value. But my religious beliefs always seem to force me to acknowledge that MOST entertainment has very little value.

The very little would include comedy, as laughter is good medicine. Now outside of the entertainment factor, sports has benefits to the person playing the sport, better health. But acting? At least music has the potential to be inspirational and to move people's emotions, it has shown to have medicinal value as well. But most music is used for negative things instead. And I guess acting and movies can also be used to inspire and to make people think, but again, same as music, far more often is used as a tool to manipulate or to inspire bad things.

I guess it's like anything else out there, religion, politics, etc., its just a tool that good people use to do good things and bad people use to do bad things, and far more people do bad things than good so its why so many people hate religion and politics, lol. And why I might have a negative view of entertainment, and my problem may be that I like entertainment too much? lol

But in the long run, entertainment rarely can claim to save lives, or greatly extend people's lives, etc.. That is all I was getting at.



Now how that has anything to do with Notre Dame? lol Some might say that Notre Dame is far too religious of an institution to fit into the B1G? They would kind of stick out in that regard if they did join the B1G.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Now how that has anything to do with Notre Dame? lol Some might say that Notre Dame is far too religious of an institution to fit into the B1G? They would kind of stick out in that regard if they did join the B1G.

It was related to if ND fit into the CIC/BTAA or not. Asking if they have the academics and research to be a real part of the B1G or not.

I think their football program will always prevent that, which is a shame considering the amount of money they are loosing.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

All that matters is football and basketball. And even then, not really. The big ten is really just members of the CIC. Sports are entirely secondary.

As an aside, your comment about club sports was particularly eye roll worthy. It wasn’t needlessly disrespectful. The five people who might care about it aren’t in this conversation and none of that sub-D3 clap trap matters. Those sports matter about the same as much as the five-member A/V club.

Now that was needlessly disrespectful.

Huh? Your last comment was actually pretty funny, and I probably deserved it.

The problem was everything else you said to me. All off the mark; just arguing for argument's sake.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Huh? Your last comment was actually pretty funny, and I probably deserved it.

The problem was everything else you said to me. All off the mark; just arguing for argument's sake.

I must have completely misinterpreted your previous comment.

Sorry about that

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

For Mr. pgb-ohio, I guess the rationale of this thread was to solicit opinion and compare it to mine. Here you have Notre Dame in their 3rd conference in what, 5 years although leaving the CCHA was certainly not their fault.
And it is a marriage of convenience that benefits both Notre Dame and the B1G at this point in time. My concern is what will keep Notre Dame here and what will it do to our conference if they for whatever reason choose to leave?
I personally feel the independence Notre Dame has enjoyed all these years has not worked to the benefit overall of the various conferences they align with for different sports because of their ability to leave a conference and align with a new one that's willing.
I think Notre Dame would be a natural as a full B1G member. Some have pointed out that research universities and other factors of education dominate the Big Ten however I would remind people that the Big Ten was formed in 1895 with the sole intent to promote intercollegiate athletics, not to promote other aspects of the member schools although that seems to be some of the focus in these modern times.
From what I'm told the conference is more focused on wanting a west coast university as a potential member so the conference's sphere of influence would extend coast to coast - a huge boost in broadcast revenue for it's TV network but if Notre Dame wanted to fully join they would with the right conditions accept them.
But back to what I was originally saying, I'm glad to play them in hockey but the just don't FEEL like part of the conference to me without them being a full fledged member school because this IS Big Ten hockey and the CCHA days of not having our own conference for hockey are gone. If we had more B1G schools with a hockey team would we be really willing to allow an outside program in if we had the numbers we desired?

 

[Wisko McBadgerton]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

I touched on this before, but again just for clarity --> Notre Dame is locked into the ACC for 20 years.

Football is contracted to play 5 ACC teams/year through 2037. The schedule is already out. (In 2036 they play @ Virginia Tech on Labor Day if you want to get your tickets early.)

All other sports (except hockey, of course) play in the ACC and the broadcast rights to those sports are locked up with the ACC TV deal for 20 years. ACC teams can still leave the conference, but their broadcast rights remain with the conference as part of the ESPN backed ACC TV deal launching in 2019. Obviously members agreed to this to guarantee stability within the conference for the TV deal investment. Could somebody negotiate and buy their way out? Always can, but the network deal $$ is going to make the cost of any such negotiated move astronomical.

So effectively Notre Dame CAN'T join the B1G or any other conference until at least 2038.

 

[Hockeybuckeye]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

I touched on this before, but again just for clarity --> Notre Dame is locked into the ACC for 20 years.

Football is contracted to play 5 ACC teams/year through 2037. The schedule is already out. (In 2036 they play @ Virginia Tech on Labor Day if you want to get your tickets early.)

All other sports (except hockey, of course) play in the ACC and the broadcast rights to those sports are locked up with the ACC TV deal for 20 years. ACC teams can still leave the conference, but their broadcast rights remain with the conference as part of the ESPN backed ACC TV deal launching in 2019. Obviously members agreed to this to guarantee stability within the conference for the TV deal investment. Could somebody negotiate and buy their way out? Always can, but the network deal $$ is going to make the cost of any such negotiated move astronomical.

So effectively Notre Dame CAN'T join the B1G or any other conference until at least 2038.

Kind of reminds me of a local situation. A large commercial expansion happened in my community and the school board signed off on giving huge tax abatements for like 16 years. I ran into the school treasurer and mentioned we were suckers to do that and she said I wasn't the first one to say that.
Sounds like Notre Dame are the suckers for their deal.

 

[DLW4GOPHERS]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

If two schools, lets say Nebraska and Illinois were to add hockey teams, would ND be kicked out of the Big 10 hockey conference? Seems the only reason they were added was to get the conference numbers up.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

Right, but you let ND in to play hockey. $$$ They have been criticized by big ten folk$ for a variety of academic reason$ yet the $lippery $lope ha$ $tarted.

There's no slippery slope. ND is ranked among the top 50 research universities with other B1G schools. That's one of the general criteria necessary for B1G affiliate membership, but full inclusion criteria to the AAU and the BTAA is more detailed involving both major on-campus research facilities, and faculty who are consistently research intensive (publishing research) and members of the National Academy of Sciences (NAS).

The BTAA values and policies are directly aligned with the Association of American Universities (AAU), which comprise a broad membership of comprehensive universities distinguished by the disciplinary breadth and quality of their programs of graduate education and research.

As I stated earlier, ND undergrad program is research competitive enough to satisfy B1G academic standards. Although the grad program is more research oriented especially in the domain of healthcare, it does not have a medical school of which academic indicators carry high point value for AAU and BTAA inclusion.

AAU and BTAA membership carries a high level of academic prestige, but the academic and research inclusion criteria is rigorous. One of the reasons Nebraska was removed from AAU membership after acceptance into the B1G, was because their medical school was considered off-campus and they lost significant point value to qualify.

The only criticism leveled against ND for full inclusion in the B1G is satisfying the BTAA criteria. I suspect as ND has upgraded their facilities and faculty research requirements, there will be another review by the AAU and BTAA for ND in the near future.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

The Big Ten's CIC academic alliance is truly a intellectual university powerhouse without global peer. The research dollars for the B1G is about $10B. Just to put that in context...that is larger than the Ivy League and the entire University of California system combined.

I'm of the opinion that we should extend a full CIC invite to John Hopkins. The school is ranked 10th in universities undergrad programs and 13th in post grad worldwide. It has had 37 Nobel laureates, earns $2.2B in federal research grants (#1 for the 35th straight year) and its research is the 3rd most cited institution in the world.

Notre Dame...not so much. It would certainly not be a win/win and when the school chose the ACC, it made its bed. Anything else is and should be a narrow relationship between the organizations of convenience.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

If two schools, lets say Nebraska and Illinois were to add hockey teams, would ND be kicked out of the Big 10 hockey conference? Seems the only reason they were added was to get the conference numbers up.

No. You never kick out. You only add.

 

[SteveO]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

The Big Ten's CIC academic alliance is truly a intellectual university powerhouse without global peer. The research dollars for the B1G is about $10B. Just to put that in context...that is larger than the Ivy League and the entire University of California system combined.

I'm of the opinion that we should extend a full CIC invite to John Hopkins. The school is ranked 10th in universities undergrad programs and 13th in post grad worldwide. It has had 37 Nobel laureates, earns $2.2B in federal research grants (#1 for the 35th straight year) and its research is the 3rd most cited institution in the world.

Notre Dame...not so much. It would certainly not be a win/win and when the school chose the ACC, it made its bed. Anything else is and should be a narrow relationship between the organizations of convenience.

There is no CIC. CIC = BTAA now. JH is not competitive in all sports to qualify for full membership in the B1G. ND is much closer to satisfying UAA and BTAA academic requirements now than 10 years ago and their sports programs would enhance the branding, popularity and quality of Big Ten sports. They will get an invite in the near future.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

There is no CIC. CIC = BTAA now. JH is not competitive in all sports to qualify for full membership in the B1G. ND is much closer to satisfying UAA and BTAA academic requirements now than 10 years ago and their sports programs would enhance the branding, popularity and quality of Big Ten sports. They will get an invite in the near future.

I *was* going to reply about Chicago, but I see they are no longer members. What happened to them?

Still, given the all the things Notre Dame- I'd bet they could fit pretty quickly into the group if fully invited, as you suggest. To the point that it could be worth them abandoning the ACC due to the BTAA.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Is Notre Dame REALLY a Big Ten school?

I *was* going to reply about Chicago, but I see they are no longer members. What happened to them?

Still, given the all the things Notre Dame- I'd bet they could fit pretty quickly into the group if fully invited, as you suggest. To the point that it could be worth them abandoning the ACC due to the BTAA.

They’re still there. They just don’t know what to call them according to this.

http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2016-06-30/cic-drops-name-raise-visibility.html