Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

[gophfan]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

Not a subsidy. What you are questioning is the dependence of small schools on the B1Gs.

To be honest, that's just a sad reality. Basketball programs at small schools can afford to have no self-sustainability because its cheap. Football programs at small schools can (sometimes) afford it because football is so popular.

Hockey has neither going for it, which means that hockey programs at some small schools simply just can't survive on their own. It's a shame, and it's terrible, but it is a harsh truth that will once again rear its ugly head the moment another school decides to join Wayne State, Fairfield and Findlay in the graveyard.

Neither do the other sports yet they can somehow there not a mass exodus when a big name school adds those sports.

 

[gophfan]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

Not a subsidy. What you are questioning is the dependence of small schools on the B1Gs.

To be honest, that's just a sad reality. Basketball programs at small schools can afford to have no self-sustainability because its cheap. Football programs at small schools can (sometimes) afford it because football is so popular.

Hockey has neither going for it, which means that hockey programs at some small schools simply just can't survive on their own. It's a shame, and it's terrible, but it is a harsh truth that will once again rear its ugly head the moment another school decides to join Wayne State, Fairfield and Findlay in the graveyard.

just like every other sport the NCAA offers and yet they dont have that kinda of dependency. Maybe college hockey should try to change that dependency instead of *****ing about the BTHC.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

You just quoted the same post, in back to back posts, bolding the same phrase. Wow.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

A sizable fraction of the "big" (wealthy) hockey schools mentioned in this thread have names ending in "State." Despite spirited denials of the impact of public tax support upon these athletic programs there is reason to suspect coincidence as the sole cause of this phenomenon. Could this be a regional thing?

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

A sizable fraction of the "big" (wealthy) hockey schools mentioned in this thread have names ending in "State." Despite spirited denials of the impact of public tax support upon these athletic programs there is reason to suspect coincidence as the sole cause of this phenomenon. Could this be a regional thing?

I don't know why I even reply to you anymore...

They also have the largest enrollment, which means, now see if you can wrap your mind around this, they also have the largest alumni base! Now this concept is really tough, so I'll understand if you don't understand it, but a large alumni base means that the team inherently has a larger fanbase, meaning more people want to watch the games, buy jerseys and hats, donate to the program, etc. Sorry to confuse you.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

I don't know why I even reply to you anymore...

They also have the largest enrollment, which means, now see if you can wrap your mind around this, they also have the largest alumni base! Now this concept is really tough, so I'll understand if you don't understand it, but a large alumni base means that the team inherently has a larger fanbase, meaning more people want to watch the games, buy jerseys and hats, donate to the program, etc. Sorry to confuse you.

Thanks for your opinion. It occurred to me that the twelve member schools of the ECAC hockey conference are all private schools, whereas some other conferences are comprised chiefly, if not exclusively, of state schools. Yes, all ECAC schools receive some government funding, but tax dollars are not their main source of income. Also, if facts are to be considered, most ECAC schools have relatively small enrollments, especially when compared to the state schools in other conferences.

Still, the majority of ECAC hockey programs appear to be quite healthy and reasonably competitive. The health of college hockey programs seems to depend upon factors other than total enrollment and alumni donations specifically earmarked for hockey programs. Money is a plausible factor, and the difference between a big state school and a small state school depends primarily upon the state budget.

Well-known facts and obvious conclusions were repeated above not because they are news, but because I'm not the one who is confused here.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

Small schools in the WCHA don't strive to be "reasonably competitive", they are in it to win it all. See: UMD 2010-2011 Season.

 

[moose97]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

http://www.gazette.com/sports/hockey-118999-force-air.html

[Air Force AD] Mueh said he had been contacted by Bowling Green athletic director Greg Christopher, who asked if the Falcons might be interested in joining the CCHA.

Mueh took the question to Serratore, and the men discussed the idea. They chatted very briefly before dismissing any thought of change.

“Who can argue with four out of five years in the NCAAs?” Mueh asked. “Why would we switch?”

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

. Also, if facts are to be considered, most ECAC schools have relatively small enrollments, especially when compared to the state schools in other conferences.

Still, the majority of ECAC hockey programs appear to be quite healthy and reasonably competitive.

BAHAHHAHAHAH, reasonably competitive? With who...other ECAC schools?

The health of college hockey programs seems to depend upon factors other than total enrollment and alumni donations specifically earmarked for hockey programs.

No one is debating this. Nice straw man you built there. It is interesting how you left out alumni donations from your Ivy League point, focusing only on enrollment there.

The IVY's are "reasonably competitive" with other schools due to other factors, namely that they have a history and reputation. They also have a "needs" based financial aid package that if I remember correctly from past arguments means that anyone who comes from a home earning less then 100K+ gets a free ride. Basically, instead of 18 athletic scholarships that other teams are limited to, they are able to offer "Academic scholarships" to the entire team. That comes from endowments.

Regarding alumni, well oh math challenged little fella, If you have an average enrollment of 5000 say over the course of 300 years is that more or less then having an average enrollment of 30,000 over 50 years? ok ok trick question, but I think you may get the point although probably not.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

BAHAHHAHAHAH, reasonably competitive? With who...other ECAC schools?



No one is debating this. Nice straw man you built there. It is interesting how you left out alumni donations from your Ivy League point, focusing only on enrollment there.

The IVY's are "reasonably competitive" with other schools due to other factors, namely that they have a history and reputation. They also have a "needs" based financial aid package that if I remember correctly from past arguments means that anyone who comes from a home earning less then 100K+ gets a free ride. Basically, instead of 18 athletic scholarships that other teams are limited to, they are able to offer "Academic scholarships" to the entire team. That comes from endowments.

Regarding alumni, well oh math challenged little fella, If you have an average enrollment of 5000 say over the course of 300 years is that more or less then having an average enrollment of 30,000 over 50 years? ok ok trick question, but I think you may get the point although probably not.

You'll have to forgive Bear Red. He thinks the clutch and grab is entertaining.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

The vast majority of alumni donations, particularly large donations, are specified for a specific purpose. Alumni, especially wealthy alumni, do not hand over much money and say, "Spend it any way you wish." It is either very dishonest or very ignorant to represent total alumni gifts as a measure of how much was given to or used by a school's athletic program in general, or hockey program in particular. Many of the most heavily endowed schools don't even have an ice hockey program. If you could provide actual amounts of alumni donations used by (for example) Union College's men's ice hockey team compared to alumni donations used by (for example) Wisconsin's men's ice hockey team you could have a point -but you won't and you don't.

How many more than 18 hockey players were on Quinnipiac's or Colgate's or any other ECAC team's roster last year, or are you just blowing smoke? You apparently do not understand that your accusation of ECAC schools unfairly inflating the scholarships on their rosters by "sneaking in" academic scholarships rests upon you assumption that there are no players with academic scholarships in any other college hockey conferences. Do you follow this logic, "little fella?"

I predict next season's RPI/Clarkson games will involve a lot more "clutch and grab." Enjoy.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

The vast majority of alumni donations, particularly large donations, are specified for a specific purpose. Alumni, especially wealthy alumni, do not hand over much money and say, "Spend it any way you wish." It is either very dishonest or very ignorant to represent total alumni gifts as a measure of how much was given to or used by a school's athletic program in general, or hockey program in particular. Many of the most heavily endowed schools don't even have an ice hockey program. If you could provide actual amounts of alumni donations used by (for example) Union College's men's ice hockey team compared to alumni donations used by (for example) Wisconsin's men's ice hockey team you could have a point -but you won't and you don't.

How many more than 18 hockey players were on Quinnipiac's or Colgate's or any other ECAC team's roster last year, or are you just blowing smoke? You apparently do not understand that your accusation of ECAC schools unfairly inflating the scholarships on their rosters by "sneaking in" academic scholarships rests upon you assumption that there are no players with academic scholarships in any other college hockey conferences. Do you follow this logic, "little fella?"

I predict next season's RPI/Clarkson games will involve a lot more "clutch and grab." Enjoy.

RPI plays actual hockey with actual hitting. I can't speak for Clarkson (SUCKS!) and their new system, although the RPI/CCT games usually involve quite a bit of that and not too much clutch and grab. But I'm surprised you didn't whine about both teams' athletic scholarships.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

"Clutch and grab" was an apparently obscure (inaccurate?) reference to Clarkson's new coach and his pedigree.
I would be the last to "whine" about scholar-athletes. They are a rare combination, but a credit to our species. You have me confused with jcarter, who apparently has an inferiority complex.

 

[yooper(UP) hockey]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

http://www.gazette.com/sports/hockey-118999-force-air.html

I think MTU Huskies fans should read this article. very intresting......

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

The vast majority of alumni donations, particularly large donations, are specified for a specific purpose. Alumni, especially wealthy alumni, do not hand over much money and say, "Spend it any way you wish." It is either very dishonest or very ignorant to represent total alumni gifts as a measure of how much was given to or used by a school's athletic program in general, or hockey program in particular. Many of the most heavily endowed schools don't even have an ice hockey program.

Great, now you are bringing schools that don't even field hockey teams.

How many more than 18 hockey players were on Quinnipiac's or Colgate's or any other ECAC team's roster last year, or are you just blowing smoke? You apparently do not understand that your accusation of ECAC schools unfairly inflating the scholarships on their rosters by "sneaking in" academic scholarships rests upon you assumption that there are no players with academic scholarships in any other college hockey conferences. Do you follow this logic, "little fella?"

BTW, I count at least 28....

Dan Clarke, Reese Rolheiser, Clay Harvey, D’Arcy Oakes, Jeremy Langlois, Mike Glaicar, Scott Zurevinski, Zach Hansen, Sean Coughlin, Kevin Bui, Yuri Bouharevich, Spencer Heichman, Pat McGann Middle Row Athletic Trainer Brian Fairbrother, Head Coach Rand Pecknold, Corey Hibbeler, Bobby Tyson, Zach Tolkinen, Loren Barron, Mike Dalhuisen, Eric Hartzell, Russell Goodman, Zach Davies, Zack Currie, Ben Arnt, Assistant Coach Justin Eddy, Associate Head Coach Ben Syer Back Row Men’s Ice Hockey Equipment Manager Ed Maturo, Head Equipment Manager Jamie Schilkowski, Manager Kevin Sokolski, Connor Jones, Kellen Jones, Brooks Robinson, Jake Whiting, John Dunbar, Manager Dan Carberry, Head Strength & Conditioning Coach Brijesh Patel, Men’s Ice Hockey Secretary Lori Onofrio

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

You forgot the Zamboni driver, or didn't he get in the photograph along with "Middle Row?" All the managers and assistants and coaches aren't exactly hockey players, but it's interesting they are all currently enjoying the benefits of academic scholarships, as you indicate above. It's a shame hockey programs outside the ECAC lack both players and assistant equipment managers who earned academic scholarships.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

academic scholarships

You keep using this term in reference to ECAC teams. Just to be clear: there's no such thing at Ivy League schools (not sure about the other non-athletic scholarship ECAC schools). At Ivies, all financial assistance is based on need, never merit of any kind - academic, athletic, artistic, etc. There are awards/scholarships that you can win on merit, but after you win then the amount that you get is determined solely by your financial need and is treated as a grant in your overall financial aid package. If Bill Gates's son won one of them, he wouldn't get a dime, just a nice line item on his resume.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

You forgot the Zamboni driver, or didn't he get in the photograph along with "Middle Row?" All the managers and assistants and coaches aren't exactly hockey players, but it's interesting they are all currently enjoying the benefits of academic scholarships, as you indicate above. It's a shame hockey programs outside the ECAC lack both players and assistant equipment managers who earned academic scholarships.

Dude you can't read...and you misquote to the point of fabrication. Regardless, yes it is the caption from the team photo and while you quip about the equipment manager had you bothered to count you would see there are at least 10 more PLAYERS then you previous stated. A simple 'thank you jcarter for pointing out my error' would have sufficed.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

j.c

Your inability to deal with the most basic units of objective measurement - simple numbers - is revealed when you claim that suddenly 28 = 10 (see above) ??!! This absurdity casts doubt on the credibility of all your observations.

You claim that only Ivy League schools can and do violate NCAA limits on the number of scholarship holders on a DI hockey roster. If this exception is NCAA policy please provide chapter and verse. If this is your personal accusation then you should either document this outrage and bring discrimination charges against the NCAA or prepare for a libel suit. Or are you claiming that there are no hockey players with academic scholarships in the CCHA, HE, or the WCHA - only athletic scholarships?
I would welcome a serious response. If not, thanks for nothing.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: Im sick of the BTHC fearmongering

j.c

Your inability to deal with the most basic units of objective measurement - simple numbers - is revealed when you claim that suddenly 28 = 10 (see above) ??!! This absurdity casts doubt on the credibility of all your observations.

You claim that only Ivy League schools can and do violate NCAA limits on the number of scholarship holders on a DI hockey roster. If this exception is NCAA policy please provide chapter and verse. If this is your personal accusation then you should either document this outrage and bring discrimination charges against the NCAA or prepare for a libel suit. Or are you claiming that there are no hockey players with academic scholarships in the CCHA, HE, or the WCHA - only athletic scholarships?
I would welcome a serious response. If not, thanks for nothing.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

I said "10 more PLAYERS then you previous stated". You stated in post #91 "How many more than 18 hockey players were on Quinnipiac's or Colgate's or any other ECAC team's roster last year". I provided the roster (from a photo caption) indicating that there were approximately 10 more then you stated, ergo 28. How you got that somehow 10 = 28 is beyond me. Either you can't read or you need to lay off the sauce chief. The beauty is the criticism that I am the one that can't understand simple numbers.

Secondly, I never anywhere claimed that Ivy League schools violated NCAA limits. No where, not once. In fact I will state for the record they do not. The NCAA allows 18 athletic scholarships. The Ivies are in compliance with that. My claim is they have an inherent advantage in that they provide for "need" based aid to all students based on incomes limits that are extremely high and would likely encompass the majority of student athletes. That's not a violation of NCAA rules, as far as I know the NCAA has no say in need based financial aid. It does however, as I stated very clearly, render a recruiting advantage. It's not a difficult concept. Moreover, I claimed no where that there were not other schools that had student athletes that receive academic scholarships, I'm sure there are, I would also wager that there are more student athletes at Harvard that receive financial awards : academic, athletic, or need based scholarships then at non-Ivies?

Stop being a turdnugget and arguing for the sake of arguing. It's hindering your ability to read and comprehend the simplest of statements. If you want a serious response, start acting serious for a minute.