Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Nothing in the article about the GAO report says Obama is obstructing enforcement any more than any other white house that came before. It simply says the border patrol is being obstructed by environmental laws.

No, they said he was obstructing. But I doubt their charge was to compare Obama to past administrations, but rather to assess the current administration. So you're looking for something one reasonably wouldn't expect from GAO.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The problem arises when two governmental agencies have conflicting duties, such as this aprticular case. I'm guessing you're saying you want the Ag Dept. or the Dept. of Interior to eliminate some red tape or otherwise speed up the process for certain formalities. That's all well and good as a sound bite, but sadly a lot of that red tape is there for a reason. Normally it's probably there for equality's sake (such as where the law doesn't allow the Ag Dept. to treat applications by other federal agencies any differently than it would a private citizen's request) or because it closes some loophole that someone else tried to take advantage of previously.

If what you're really saying is that you'd place an emphasis on border security and are willing to harm the environment a little more to do so, well, that's a policy decision and much easier to implement. But then don't be surprised when the employees of the Dept. of Interior and Ag. Dept. start complaining about how President Gray doesn't care about Yogi Bear and hinders their efforts to protect America's natural beauty.

You assume that it's nothing more than a turf war between agencies. My perspective is that Obama is having all his agencies work together to make things ineffective at the border. Two very different stories.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You assume that it's nothing more than a turf war between agencies. My perspective is that Obama is having all his agencies work together to make things ineffective at the border. Two very different stories.

I don't think it's even a turf war, in that I don't read it as the Border Patrol saying "Wow, those Ag guys are trying to stick it to us" or, conversely, the Ag guys saying, "Man, I hope we screw over the Border guys on this one." I think it's simply part of the process when dealing with any part of the Federal Gov't, for better or for worse.

The GAO article says it took 16 weeks for one approval, by which time it was no longer worthwhile. My limited dealings with the Feds tell me that's not exactly an out of the ordinary timeframe for these kinds of processes.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I don't think it's even a turf war, in that I don't read it as the Border Patrol saying "Wow, those Ag guys are trying to stick it to us" or, conversely, the Ag guys saying, "Man, I hope we screw over the Border guys on this one." I think it's simply part of the process when dealing with any part of the Federal Gov't, for better or for worse.

The GAO article says it took 16 weeks for one approval, by which time it was no longer worthwhile. My limited dealings with the Feds tell me that's not exactly an out of the ordinary timeframe for these kinds of processes.

Wow, I'm impressed. I didn't know you had ever applied for a border patrol station!

I really don't think you can assume that your limited dealing with some other part of the federal government is indicative of how long it should take to get approval of a border post.

Again, it comes down to you thinking this is just natural. I recognize government can be slow and bungling, but think there's more to it than you do.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You assume that it's nothing more than a turf war between agencies. My perspective is that Obama is having all his agencies work together to make things ineffective at the border. Two very different stories.

I find the latter story implausible, or at least far less likely than that the massive raft that is the federal government is just hard to steer. I'm also suspicious because the motivation for that sort of a delberate effort is conspiratorial -- deliberately subverting federal agencies in order to achieve hidden political ends.

But I'm not saying that's impossible because, for instance, I have no trouble at all assuming that's what Republicans do with the EPA, arms control, EEOC, HAVA etc.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I find the latter story implausible, or at least far less likely than that the massive raft that is the federal government is just hard to steer. I'm also suspicious because the motivation for that sort of a delberate effort is conspiratorial -- deliberately subverting federal agencies in order to achieve hidden political ends.

But I'm not saying that's impossible because, for instance, I have no trouble at all assuming that's what Republicans do with the EPA, arms control, EEOC, HAVA etc.

I can understand, being distant from the epicenter of all this, that you would doubt the latter. Being at the epicenter, I have less doubt.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Wow, I'm impressed. I didn't know you had ever applied for a border patrol station!

I really don't think you can assume that your limited dealing with some other part of the federal government is indicative of how long it should take to get approval of a border post.

Again, it comes down to you thinking this is just natural. I recognize government can be slow and bungling, but think there's more to it than you do.

Well, look at it from my perspective, as a lowly state employee. I see certain inefficiencies day in and day out. Some are typical (posting on internet message boards, taking 15 minute coffee breaks, etc.), others less so. Most of my co-workers are career government employees living paycheck to paycheck trying to make it to retirement, not political appointees. Those same inefficiencies carry over from one gov't to the next, regardless of election results, since the underlying beauracracy remains unchanged.

Such inefficiencies only increase once you jump from the state to the federal gov't, at least based on my limited personal experience and the anecdotes of others.

You're asking me to think that instead of just believing that's the case here, that some GS-13 file clerk in the Dept. of Interior is being pressured by his boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss to intentionally slow the gears of border patrol permits. I guess I'm saying in the absence of a smoking gun memo or other concrete evidence, I find the former (the gov't is simply slow) more probable than the latter (top down orders) by several orders of magnitude.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Well, look at it from my perspective, as a lowly state employee. I see certain inefficiencies day in and day out. Some are typical (posting on internet message boards, taking 15 minute coffee breaks, etc.), others less so. Most of my co-workers are career government employees living paycheck to paycheck trying to make it to retirement, not political appointees. Those same inefficiencies carry over from one gov't to the next, regardless of election results, since the underlying beauracracy remains unchanged.

Such inefficiencies only increase once you jump from the state to the federal gov't, at least based on my limited personal experience and the anecdotes of others.

You're asking me to think that instead of just believing that's the case here, that some GS-13 file clerk in the Dept. of Interior is being pressured by his boss's boss's boss's boss's boss's boss to intentionally slow the gears of border patrol permits. I guess I'm saying in the absence of a smoking gun memo or other concrete evidence, I find the former (the gov't is simply slow) more probable than the latter (top down orders) by several orders of magnitude.

If government is generally so slow and inept, it stands to figure that it would be quite easy for a few political appointees high up in a federal agency to make it even more slow and inept. Building off a strength if you will.

You're asking me to believe that, despite all the fumbling on border issues from Obama, and his sympathy for the Hispanic vote, repeated reports of agencies not cooperating with each other or locals on border issues, etc., that he doesn't have people running these agencies that know he's perfectly happy if they don't make things easy to police on the border, and act accordingly. To me that's a lot more plausible, taking into account administration policies and views.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

If government is generally so slow and inept, it stands to figure that it would be quite easy for a few political appointees high up in a federal agency to make it even more slow and inept. Building off a strength if you will.

You're asking me to believe that, despite all the fumbling on border issues from Obama, and his sympathy for the Hispanic vote, repeated reports of agencies not cooperating with each other or locals on border issues, etc., that he doesn't have people running these agencies that know he's perfectly happy if they don't make things easy to police on the border, and act accordingly. To me that's a lot more plausible, taking into account administration policies and views.

Without getting into any specifics, I'm working on a case involving a new alternative energy source. It's been working its way through the system since March of 2009. It took 9 months from the initial request to get a final ruling from the state agency. An opponent of the plan appealed that, so it's been working its way through the courts since January.

And that's not an overly lengthy delay.

I'm just saying, Futurama wasn't too far off the mark when describing the central beauracracy, with their slow mobiles and everything.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Without getting into any specifics, I'm working on a case involving a new alternative energy source. It's been working its way through the system since March of 2009. It took 9 months from the initial request to get a final ruling from the state agency. An opponent of the plan appealed that, so it's been working its way through the courts since January.

And that's not an overly lengthy delay.

I'm just saying, Futurama wasn't too far off the mark when describing the central beauracracy, with their slow mobiles and everything.

We have some interesting parallels. I work for the state of Arizona and have a good deal of involvement in alternative energy activities in this state. I can understand the stuff you work on might take longer, but I don't think a little what sounded like temporary Border Patrol station would be nearly as involved or require the kind of sign-offs and process that an alternative energy source likely would. But I would say there's probably a million ways in the federal government of slowing or killing things without being obvious at all.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You do realize such issues have been going on long, long before Obama ever got into office, right?

It ends just as soon as he wants to.

Much like DADT.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

If you want to stop it, bring thousands of our troops home from places they have no use being and plaster them along the border. You cross, you die.

Not saying I advocate that, but if you want to stop it that oughta do the trick. Regardless, you want hardball...there it is.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

If you want to stop it, bring thousands of our troops home from places they have no use being and plaster them along the border. You cross, you die.

Not saying I advocate that, but if you want to stop it that oughta do the trick. Regardless, you want hardball...there it is.

Waaaait a minute. So you're actually suggesting we use the Defense Department to....defend our own borders? I'm not sure I even understand this concept.

 

[BoomGoestheDynamite]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

If you want to stop it, bring thousands of our troops home from places they have no use being and plaster them along the border. You cross, you die.

Not saying I advocate that, but if you want to stop it that oughta do the trick. Regardless, you want hardball...there it is.

Nonsense. We need to keep 80,000 troops in Europe in case those dirty commies fire up the Red Army. Oh wait.

 

[Sar'nt]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The problem arises when two governmental agencies have conflicting duties, such as this aprticular case. I'm guessing you're saying you want the Ag Dept. or the Dept. of Interior to eliminate some red tape or otherwise speed up the process for certain formalities. That's all well and good as a sound bite, but sadly a lot of that red tape is there for a reason. Normally it's probably there for equality's sake (such as where the law doesn't allow the Ag Dept. to treat applications by other federal agencies any differently than it would a private citizen's request) or because it closes some loophole that someone else tried to take advantage of previously.

If what you're really saying is that you'd place an emphasis on border security and are willing to harm the environment a little more to do so, well, that's a policy decision and much easier to implement. But then don't be surprised when the employees of the Dept. of Interior and Ag. Dept. start complaining about how President Gray doesn't care about Yogi Bear and hinders their efforts to protect America's natural beauty.

So, this is like the Santa Fe-Southern Pacific merger back in the '80s? Where two different branches of the same administration had different ideas? Where there could be legitimate differences of opinion irrelevant of politics? How many people reading this post had to Google this merger proposal to get what I'm saying?

And, I read what I just wrote, and I hear Stewie mocking Brian. Oh, well...

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The injunction on parts of SB1070 will be heard by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals today. Thanks to Jan Brewer for being there to represent Arizona's interests.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/10/31/20101031arizona-immigration-law-injunction.html

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The feds can't control the border, but, hey, Americans better not put flags and notes along the border or the feds will remove them!

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=135858&catid=45

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The feds can't control the border, but, hey, Americans better not put flags and notes along the border or the feds will remove them!

http://www.wcsh6.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=135858&catid=45

I really don't think you want to shine the light on this one, Bob. It's asinine all around. The Border Patrol's dumb on multiple levels here (though what I'm laughing at probably isn't what caused you to post this story), but the protestors aren't exactly doing much to sway people to their cause, either.

Seriously, what's the point of hanging American flags with petitions on them supposed to do? Dissuade Mexicans from coming across, like they didn't know that's where the border was? Or maybe it's to keep the actual grunts of the Border Patrol busy cleaning up their litter rather than actually patroling the border? Are they putting them there on the off chance a congressman or senator walks by and sees those petitions?

And here's where the idiocy from both sides merges - this has been going on for 3 years? Seriously? So some guy has nothing better to do with his life than hang mini American flags for 3 freaking years? He didn't get the hint that they had no effect? Didn't want to change tactics, maybe try something with a little more pizazz? And the Border Patrol put up with this for 3 years and just now decided to make him stop? Why the hell didn't they tell him to stop oh, 2 years and 11 months ago? I have a feeling if I started planting miniture American flags around the local Federal courthouse, I'd be detained within a week and told to stop littering/trespassing/etc.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

It has the effect that any political protest has: none until it becomes a story and gives the protest a public forum. Continuing to do it in defiance of a law would be non-violent civil disobedience, and as long as the protesters are willing to pay the fine or do the time, god bless 'em, they should keep it up. A few statues of liberty as a counter-protest would be nice, as well.

As long as protest is not intimidation it's as American as apple pie. Also, if you crack down on non-violent and principled protest, the tiny number of crazies have that much more fertile recruiting ground for edging the sane but impatient towards the abyss.

 

[moe24]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Seriously, what's the point of hanging American flags with petitions on them supposed to do? Dissuade Mexicans from coming across, like they didn't know that's where the border was? Or maybe it's to keep the actual grunts of the Border Patrol busy cleaning up their litter rather than actually patroling the border? Are they putting them there on the off chance a congressman or senator walks by and sees those petitions?

It's all about publicity. And they just got some. The fact that the media gave them the time of day is what is truly asinine.