Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I call bull on that, and to tell you to prove it.

In this case- there's a minimum standard for the cell, the food, and the guards- how a private company can do that AND make money better than the government is beyond me.

It may be "common sense" but I've never seen data to support your theory. Quite the contrary, from what I've looked into- take out profit, and sure, private can be better.

Still- Bob- happy about paying your taxes this way? If you are, there are empty prisons here in Michigan- send 'em up- we can use your money.

You don't understand how something privatized might be more efficient than something being done by the government? Wow. Even for libs, most at least can acknowledge the concept of privatization working in certain circumstances, even if in other circumstances privatization may not be as appropriate. Holy mackinoli!

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

As for the prisons, if they can be run more efficiently via privatization than by the government, as long as necessary safeguards are in place of course, I have no problem with the concept. As I said already, this isn't a new concept in Arizona. We've had some privatized prisons for awhile. So, you and NPR and anyone else who doesn't get it should find out what's happening on the ground in Arizona before making statements that make you sound silly. Please connect the dots.

Are prisons something for which "efficiency" should be top priority, though? I consider that part of the public safety sphere of things, so in my mind its akin to privatizing the military or police force.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Give Bob a break. He has no qualms about his state legislatures going on an all expenses paid junket for themselves and their families. At this junket, they are handed a law written by the private prison company which they file word for word with no changes. A law that will significantly increase the detainee population in the state....and I wonder who will get hired to build/run those new prisons?

Yup, nuttin' to see here folks. But lets blame the people who blew the cover on this sleaze instead. Because, as we all know, its okay if its conservatives doing it....

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Are prisons something for which "efficiency" should be top priority, though? I consider that part of the public safety sphere of things, so in my mind its akin to privatizing the military or police force.

I'm nervous whenever people start talking about efficiency anywhere in the neighborhood of institutions that have the ability to detain you. Rights are gloriously inefficient.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Rights are gloriously inefficient.

And pesky.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Are prisons something for which "efficiency" should be top priority, though? I consider that part of the public safety sphere of things, so in my mind its akin to privatizing the military or police force.

Part of being an efficient prison would be to keep the prisoners inside, eh? Wouldn't make much sense to save money, but have prisoners escaping left and right, at least in my book. That's why I threw in the mention of proper safeguards. I assumed that was a given?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Give Bob a break. He has no qualms about his state legislatures going on an all expenses paid junket for themselves and their families. At this junket, they are handed a law written by the private prison company which they file word for word with no changes. A law that will significantly increase the detainee population in the state....and I wonder who will get hired to build/run those new prisons?

Yup, nuttin' to see here folks. But lets blame the people who blew the cover on this sleaze instead. Because, as we all know, its okay if its conservatives doing it....

You missed the part where they had a fully written bill and they were showing it to various folks to try to get the best bill around. But don't let such facts get in your way. NPR didn't.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Part of being an efficient prison would be to keep the prisoners inside, eh? Wouldn't make much sense to save money, but have prisoners escaping left and right, at least in my book. That's why I threw in the mention of proper safeguards. I assumed that was a given?

So, so long as the proper safeguards are in place, you'd be all for privatizing the local P.D. or county sheriffs then?

If not, why is it ok to do so to prisons but not the police?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So, so long as the proper safeguards are in place, you'd be all for privatizing the local P.D. or county sheriffs then?

If not, why is it ok to do so to prisons but not the police?

You guys don't get it. It's been done (private prisons) and been fine here in Arizona for awhile (don't know how long exactly, but for awhile). The fact that NPR couldn't fact check a little doesn't mean this is a new issue or one that anyone here except a few Dems running for office think is worthy of discussion. Sheesh.

And I'd say a PD or sheriff's office, where they're out there making arrests, etc. is a substantively different function than housing folks who are awaiting processing to send them back across the border, or who have had their trial, etc. and are serving out their term for whatever they were convicted of. Very different functions that I'd think people could differentiate. Maybe not.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

And back on the front lines, the latest is an apparent cartel-related beheading here in Phoenix. Oh, but we Arizonans shouldn't want peace and safety in our state. We're just whining about beheadings and such happening right down the street.

http://http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/299552

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

And the GAO reports on how Obama is having a number of federal agencies hamstring border enforcement efforts by the Border Patrol. No surprise on this one.

http://http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/125531-gao-report-border-patrols-hands-tied-by-interior-agriculture-rules

The sad irony is that the rampant illegal immigration that takes place over these federal lands, in part due to keeping Border Patrol from effectively policing the areas, is incredibly destructive to the environment in those areas.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

And the GAO reports on how Obama is having a number of federal agencies hamstring border enforcement efforts by the Border Patrol. No surprise on this one.

You do realize such issues have been going on long, long before Obama ever got into office, right? The EPA and related federal agencies most likely aren't being directed by anyone to intentionally stifle the border patrol, it's simply a by-product of the same system that requires environmental studies done on almost any new federally-funded construction.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You missed the part where they had a fully written bill and they were showing it to various folks to try to get the best bill around. But don't let such facts get in your way. NPR didn't.

I didn't miss the part where the AZ legislator (Russell?) filed the exact same bill that was written for him by an out of state company who stands to benefit significantly from the law being passed. Why do you suppose a prison company is in the business of writing laws in the first place? What's next in Arizona - coyotes sending state lawmakers on an all expenses paid trip, and then handing them a bill to file easing restrictions on border crossing? How would that be any different than the graft going on here? The funny part is because of this little payoff that you seemingly have no problem with, it will cost the state millions in legal fees for passing a poorly written law that had no chance of being upheld by the courts. Next time you complain about your taxes, remember that.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You do realize such issues have been going on long, long before Obama ever got into office, right? The EPA and related federal agencies most likely aren't being directed by anyone to intentionally stifle the border patrol, it's simply a by-product of the same system that requires environmental studies done on almost any new federally-funded construction.

It's gotten a lot worse since Obama got into office. Of course inherently there will be some conflict. But it's gotten much worse with Obama. This isn't the first report about how Obama is obstructing effective border enforcement, I just posted this one, as I hadn't seen something from the GAO on this subject before.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

It's gotten a lot worse since Obama got into office. Of course inherently there will be some conflict. But it's gotten much worse with Obama. This isn't the first report about how Obama is obstructing effective border enforcement, I just posted this one, as I hadn't seen something from the GAO on this subject before.

What concrete things do you think a McCain Administration would be doing? I'm all for holding the sitting administration responsible, I get that, so by all means hold Obama 100% responsible. But how much of this would be happening if that other guy had won? 95%? All 100%

Let me posit the environment as a contrary example. The overlap in environmentalist problems between Bush and Obama is probably something like 99%, but I still feel a lot more comfortable with Obama because I think this administration is actually thinking about the problem, whereas I think the GOP either doesn't care or can't afford to alienate their donors. That's not entirely an unfounded fear, but it is more of an emotional response than a dispassionate review of the evidence of progress, which, at least at this point, is nearly identical. Aren't you doing the same thing here?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

What concrete things do you think a McCain Adminitration would be doing? I'm all for holding the sitting administration responsible, I get that, so by all means hold Obama 100% reponsible. But how much of this would also be the case of that other guy had won? 95%?

I should caveat what I previously said to note Bush was pretty lousy on border issues, though I'd say it's gotten even worse under Obama. Under McCain? Hard to say, as he wasn't big on border security until he started getting clobbered in the Republican primary for being so soft on the issue. He then flipped to a much harder line, but I was never very confident he'd hold it once he got elected. But, if you had someone elected who clearly took border security seriously, I think there would be a significant difference from what Obama is doing. Obama is playing the issue well though, making it look like he's doing things through Homeland Security, but really undermining it through stuff like this. Enough opaqueness that he can claim to both be tightening the border and simultaneously court the Hispanic vote. I give him credit for being politically savy on the issue, even if we Arizonans suffer as a result.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I should caveat what I previously said to note Bush was pretty lousy on border issues, though I'd say it's gotten even worse under Obama. Under McCain? Hard to say, as he wasn't big on border security until he started getting clobbered in the Republican primary for being so soft on the issue. He then flipped to a much harder line, but I was never very confident he'd hold it once he got elected. But, if you had someone elected who clearly took border security seriously, I think there would be a significant difference from what Obama is doing. Obama is playing the issue well though, making it look like he's doing things through Homeland Security, but really undermining it through stuff like this. Enough opaqueness that he can claim to both be tightening the border and simultaneously court the Hispanic vote. I give him credit for being politically savy on the issue, even if we Arizonans suffer as a result.

Granting that I have not read even a tenth as much on this as you, my impression was Hispanics are not that far out from other Americans in their opinions on this -- IIRC you posted a while back that they even supported the new AZ law, albeit by a slim margin.

But let me rephrase it: what does President Gray do? ("Robert Gray" actually sounds kind of like a Clancy-esque president name ) What are the concrete actions a president could take, today, given current resources, that put us on the road to the Gray Doctrine?

I have no idea what to do about this issue -- Secretary of Homeland Security Kepler just wants this to go away so he can concentrate on suspicious UPS packages. So, what are your orders?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Granting that I have not read even a tenth as much on this you, my impression was Hispanics are not that far out from other Americans in their opinions on this -- IIRC you posted a while back that they even supported the new AZ law, albeit by a slim margin.

But let me rephrase it: what does President Gray do? ("Robert Gray" actually sounds kind of like a Clancy-esque president name ) What are the concrete actions a president could take, today, given current resources, that put us on the road to the Gray Doctrine?

I have no idea what to do about this issue -- Secretary of Homeland Security Kepler just wants this to go away so he can concentrate on suspicious UPS packages. So, what are your orders?

The first step is easy. I order the higher ups in Border Patrol, as well as these other agencies that have involvement in border lands to cooperate with one another and with state and local authorities. That in and of itself is huge. Oh, and Napolitano is out, day one, replaced by someone who doesn't change their story 180 degrees from when they are governor of Arizona to head of Homeland Security. And I stop suing and demonizing state and local governments for trying to enforce what the federal government has in the past refused to enforce (back to step one - cooperation). I send a clear message that we want to actually secure the border, not just have PR moments to try to look good. And I acknowledge that current federal policies and enforcement approaches massively burden border states with unfunded mandates that I work to either eliminate the mandate, or fund it. I empower the Border Patrol agents on the ground to do their jobs the best they can (back to not hamstringing them through upper management). If folks get shot at along the border, I make it a big issue with Mexico and beef things up as necessary, instead of sweeping it under the carpet as happens now. Really, just not playing politics with the issue and working with state and local folks and having cooperative federal agencies would drastically change things, but none of that is happening now. That's a good start.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

It's gotten a lot worse since Obama got into office. Of course inherently there will be some conflict. But it's gotten much worse with Obama. This isn't the first report about how Obama is obstructing effective border enforcement, I just posted this one, as I hadn't seen something from the GAO on this subject before.

Nothing in the article about the GAO report says Obama is obstructing enforcement any more than any other white house that came before. It simply says the border patrol is being obstructed by environmental laws.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

The first step is easy. I order the higher ups in Border Patrol, as well as these other agencies that have involvement in border lands to cooperate with one another and with state and local authorities...Really, just not playing politics with the issue and working with state and local folks and having cooperative federal agencies would drastically change things, but none of that is happening now. That's a good start.

The problem arises when two governmental agencies have conflicting duties, such as this aprticular case. I'm guessing you're saying you want the Ag Dept. or the Dept. of Interior to eliminate some red tape or otherwise speed up the process for certain formalities. That's all well and good as a sound bite, but sadly a lot of that red tape is there for a reason. Normally it's probably there for equality's sake (such as where the law doesn't allow the Ag Dept. to treat applications by other federal agencies any differently than it would a private citizen's request) or because it closes some loophole that someone else tried to take advantage of previously.

If what you're really saying is that you'd place an emphasis on border security and are willing to harm the environment a little more to do so, well, that's a policy decision and much easier to implement. But then don't be surprised when the employees of the Dept. of Interior and Ag. Dept. start complaining about how President Gray doesn't care about Yogi Bear and hinders their efforts to protect America's natural beauty.