Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

NPR really seems to be getting worse these days.

It's possible, but considering I am the proud resident voice of liberal snobbery and even I can't stand NPR's smug preciousness, I don't think you have to worry about them swaying any undecideds. As with Fox News, the only reason you go up to that girl on the corner is you have already made up your mind to buy what she's selling.

In the case of NPR, though, it is a shame, since unless you get BBC, France 24, or DW, there is simply no other outlet for international news. Even Al Jazeera or god help us RT is far superior to the coverage you'll get on the vegetative networks or CNN.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Typical biased NPR reporting. Yellow journalism at its finest. When will NPR be opening compaigning against Jan Brewer here? They had a real nice puff piece the other day, promoting her opponent on their local station here in Phoenix. Anyone (are you listening NPR), that thinks some prison privatization scheme is remotely driving immigration issues in Arizona is simply looney and has no clue what goes on here in Arizona.


And on the red light cameras, that was one of Janet Napolitano's schemes to get more money for her social programs. Problem is, they didn't make much money, and they made a lot of people mad. So Jan Brewer and the Republican Legislature here had them all taken down (there are a few still done by certain municipalities). I used to drive past several each day going to work. They are no longer even in the ground.

Based on that response, then that means you are ok with your Arizona Tax dollars paying for the incarceration of ilegal immigrants for the forseeable future? As opposed to sending them across the border?

Heck with the possible corruption, but do you really understand that you, and your tax paying fellow Arizona's, are paying to hold people in prison? Which is a lot more expensive then sending them home.

Not to mention, you are paying for their incarceration + a profit margin for the company who is doing it.

That's a good use of your tax dollars?

As for your red light cameras, everything I read about them was not profiting Arizona, but the private company who issued the tickets (ie- the camera owners).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

It's possible, but considering I am the proud resident voice of liberal snobbery and even I can't stand NPR's smug preciousness, I don't think you have to worry about them swaying any undecideds. As with Fox News, the only reason you go up to that girl on the corner is you have already made up your mind to buy what she's selling.

In the case of NPR, though, it is a shame, since unless you get BBC, France 24, or DW, there is simply no other outlet for international news. Even Al Jazeera or god help us RT is far superior to the coverage you'll get on the vegetative networks or CNN.

In a way I respect Fox, MSNBC, and such, as at least they really don't seriously argue that they are a paragon of neutrality. NPR would be a lot more tolerable if they just took their earned spot in the lineup of liberal news outlets instead of pretending to be something they obviously are not. It's really too bad, as some of the non-political stuff NPR airs, I enjoy. But when they go beyond telling you about some diner in small-town Kansas or school-teacher in rural Montana and such, they don't do well.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I agree it seems like a no brainer moneymaker, but they aren't necessarily.

They were big moneymakers in Counciltucky (Iowa's redneck suburb of Omaha), as well as most other places I've been that have them. Which is why I'm confused that they weren't moneymakers in AZ.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

In a way I respect Fox, MSNBC, and such, as at least they really don't seriously argue that they are a paragon of neutrality.

"Fair and Balanced." "We Report, You Decide."

Come on. My office is 90% conservative, and 90% of them will tell you with a straight face that they watch Fox because it's "balanced." That shtick, as silly as you and I may find it, actually works with the Great Unwashed.

And I hate those frigging stories about local diners, with the clinking plates on the soundtrack and the opening hook about "Randy Sue looks dolefully at the overflowing sink," and ohmygod if I hear another one of those pieces I'm going to hurt somebody.

And another thing. Frank Deford. Good god, he couldn't be more pompous if he was deliberately trying. It's like a timewarp to a 1958 S.I. cover article about the Yale-Harvard game with Monty Burns bundled against the brisk Alston autumn. Frank Deford can die in a fire. With David Sedaris, who hasn't done anything listenable since his Christmas Santa story and OK, yes, that was good but honestly I hear better pieces on the MOTH every evening, and not even Elizabeth Gilbert speaking before TED could be that annoying.

Jesus. I need a drink.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Based on that response, then that means you are ok with your Arizona Tax dollars paying for the incarceration of ilegal immigrants for the forseeable future? As opposed to sending them across the border?

Heck with the possible corruption, but do you really understand that you, and your tax paying fellow Arizona's, are paying to hold people in prison? Which is a lot more expensive then sending them home.

Not to mention, you are paying for their incarceration + a profit margin for the company who is doing it.

That's a good use of your tax dollars?

As for your red light cameras, everything I read about them was not profiting Arizona, but the private company who issued the tickets (ie- the camera owners).

You assume NPR's reporting is close to accurate. Nobody is planning on holding illegals for years and years and years (except for probably certain felons, but that's not your typical illegal). That's just dumb talk. But, the locals do have to hold the illegals until the feds get around to taking them and sending them back across the border, which, unfortunately isn't as quick as it should be, but I guess it's theoretically possible that Obama might take 5-10 years to accept an illegal back from state authorities to send back to Mexico.

Arizona already pays a huge tab every year for all the illegal related costs that the feds don't reimburse. Sizable chunks of the population in county jails and such are already illegals. And some state prison facilities are privatised, so it's hardly a radical plan if illegals were housed in privatised prisons. It's already been going on for years. But, I doubt NPR bothered looking beyond those documents that allowed it to create a quick smear article from.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

"Fair and Balanced." "We Report, You Decide."

Come on.

You (or most people) believe stupid news program slogans? I'm dissappointed in you (and most people)!

 

[alfablue]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

You assume NPR's reporting is close to accurate. Nobody is planning on holding illegals for years and years and years (except for probably certain felons, but that's not your typical illegal). That's just dumb talk. But, the locals do have to hold the illegals until the feds get around to taking them and sending them back across the border, which, unfortunately isn't as quick as it should be, but I guess it's theoretically possible that Obama might take 5-10 years to accept an illegal back from state authorities to send back to Mexico.

Arizona already pays a huge tab every year for all the illegal related costs that the feds don't reimburse. Sizable chunks of the population in county jails and such are already illegals. And some state prison facilities are privatised, so it's hardly a radical plan if illegals were housed in privatised prisons. It's already been going on for years. But, I doubt NPR bothered looking beyond those documents that allowed it to create a quick smear article from.

Nice of you to assume what I was thinking. I heard correctly- the incareration of a person will be temporary, of the people- who knows. And the prison is private, therefore to make money holding people.

So, this is your tax dollars, bob. You get to pay to hold them AND a profit margin above that- you are Ok with that? It's your tax dollars at work here, not mine.

don't skirt the question- you are ok with housing illegals and paying a profit? this isnt' about the federal govenment, it's about Arizona.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

So, this is your tax dollars, bob. You get to pay to hold them AND a profit margin above that- you are Ok with that? It's your tax dollars at work here, not mine.

Cost of private business + profit margin << Cost of government function + inefficiency + bureaucracy

Nearly always true.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Cost of private business + profit margin << Cost of government function + inefficiency + bureaucracy

Nearly always true.

Doesn't mean there aren't things for which gov't is still better suited, even if it costs more.

Or should we privatize the police and fire departments? The issue here isn't the cost of housing prisoner X in jail Y (privatized) vs. Jail Z (gov't run), it's that Jail Y has a financial incentive to create more criminals by expanding the criminal code.

Whether that actually happened or not is irrelevant. The fact that it could have happened is reason enough not to have privately run prisons.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Doesn't mean there aren't things for which gov't is still better suited, even if it costs more.

Or should we privatize the police and fire departments? The issue here isn't the cost of housing prisoner X in jail Y (privatized) vs. Jail Z (gov't run), it's that Jail Y has a financial incentive to create more criminals by expanding the criminal code.

Whether that actually happened or not is irrelevant. The fact that it could have happened is reason enough not to have privately run prisons.

Lots of people have financial incentive to expand the criminal code - trial lawyers, for example.

The fact that an incentive exists is not a problem. If the entity with incentive is using corrupt means to get the laws passed, then that obviously IS a problem, but that's a separate issue.

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Lots of people have financial incentive to expand the criminal code - trial lawyers, for example.

Not really, since they can goto trial whether the guy's charged with a legitimate crime or not. It's almost better where the criminal code is smaller - innocent people tend to go to trial more often. Guilty ones plead out way, way more often.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Not really, since they can goto trial whether the guy's charged with a legitimate crime or not. It's almost better where the criminal code is smaller - innocent people tend to go to trial more often. Guilty ones plead out way, way more often.

I'm not following your argument at all.

If California legalizes marijuana next week, will that add or eliminate jobs for lawyers in California?

Edit - also Daniel DiSalvo essay in National Affairs:

Throughout the 1980s and '90s, the CCPOA lobbied the state government to increase California's prison facilities—since more prisons would obviously mean more jobs for corrections officers. And between 1980 and 2000, the Golden State constructed 22 new prisons for adults (before 1980, California had only 12 such facilities). The CCPOA also pushed for the 1994 "three strikes" sentencing law, which imposed stiff penalties on repeat offenders. The prison population exploded—and, as intended, the new prisoners required more guards. The CCPOA has been no less successful in increasing members' compensation: In 2006, the average union member made $70,000 a year, and more than $100,000 with overtime. Corrections officers can also retire with 90% of their salaries as early as age 50. Today, an amazing 11% of the state budget—more than what is spent on higher education—goes to the penal system. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger now proposes privatizing portions of the prison system to escape the unions' grip—though his proposal has so far met with predictable (union supported) political opposition.

Every single policy change creates winners and losers, so there's no use handwringing over it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I've never been able to shake the instinct that drug laws are cooked up and used by politicians to scare up votes and various interests in the prison-industrial complex to keep the money pouring in.

The same could be said about politicians using Prohibition to Create A Crisis To Solve. But who benefited financially from that set-up? Gangsters, of course, same as today. But I wonder what legitimate business interests supported Prohibition strictly on the dollars and cents? That would be an interesting study. I suppose you could look at it in reverse -- what businesses were hurt by the end of Prohibition?

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

what businesses were hurt by the end of Prohibition?

The Baptist church?

 

[alfablue]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Cost of private business + profit margin << Cost of government function + inefficiency + bureaucracy

Nearly always true.

I call bull on that, and to tell you to prove it.

In this case- there's a minimum standard for the cell, the food, and the guards- how a private company can do that AND make money better than the government is beyond me.

It may be "common sense" but I've never seen data to support your theory. Quite the contrary, from what I've looked into- take out profit, and sure, private can be better.

Still- Bob- happy about paying your taxes this way? If you are, there are empty prisons here in Michigan- send 'em up- we can use your money.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Based on that response, then that means you are ok with your Arizona Tax dollars paying for the incarceration of ilegal immigrants for the forseeable future? As opposed to sending them across the border?

I'm not from Arizona, but stuffing them all into a furnace seems like the truly fiscally responsible way to go. Less cleanup cost, too.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

I call bull on that, and to tell you to prove it.

In this case- there's a minimum standard for the cell, the food, and the guards- how a private company can do that AND make money better than the government is beyond me.

You're not very creative, then. Using non-union workers, for starters. Different bidding rules for choosing construction contractors and food suppliers than the government processes. Etc.

If government can do things more cheaply, why would they ever buy any goods or services? And yet, they do - all the time. They outsource everything from security (Blackwater, et al) to IT to road construction to shipbuilding. Why not just have government workers perform those functions if you think the government can do them more cheaply?

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

If California legalizes marijuana next week, will that add or eliminate jobs for lawyers in California?

Probably add - the additional business attorneys will get from distributors will more than offset the work done on guilty pleas.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration IV: Amnesty For Some, Miniature American Flags For Others

Nice of you to assume what I was thinking. I heard correctly- the incareration of a person will be temporary, of the people- who knows. And the prison is private, therefore to make money holding people.

So, this is your tax dollars, bob. You get to pay to hold them AND a profit margin above that- you are Ok with that? It's your tax dollars at work here, not mine.

don't skirt the question- you are ok with housing illegals and paying a profit? this isnt' about the federal govenment, it's about Arizona.

You really don't understand at all do you? Arizona is housing them because the feds are not doing their responsibilities. Or the feds should be reimbursing Arizona for the expenses of helping with a federal responsibility. Glad you've clarified you are in support of unfunded federal mandates. Only someone with no idea what's going on could divorce the federal government from the issue of housing illegals.

As for the prisons, if they can be run more efficiently via privatization than by the government, as long as necessary safeguards are in place of course, I have no problem with the concept. As I said already, this isn't a new concept in Arizona. We've had some privatized prisons for awhile. So, you and NPR and anyone else who doesn't get it should find out what's happening on the ground in Arizona before making statements that make you sound silly. Please connect the dots.