Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

Like it or not Hockey East is going to a 12 team playoff. As a Merrimack fan, I like this because my team does have a chance. As a hockey fan I dislike the lack of importance placed of the regular season. I would have kept it to eight teams and making the playoffs would have been an accomplishment to school like mine. With the 12 team playoff I want to see all 12 teams play on the first weekend 1v12 2v11 etc. Top two remaining teams get Friday night byes with semis on Saturday and finals Sunday night.

This is basically what the WCHA does now, except it is played Thursday/Friday/Saturday.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I don't like byes in the middle of the tourney, a la the WCHA. In my opinion, byes should be awarded to the top teams at the beginning of the tournament. That said, I'm also not a fan of reseeding, so if the bye is to come in the second round and #12 beat #1, then I say give the bye to #12 - they earned it.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I don't like byes in the middle of the tourney, a la the WCHA. In my opinion, byes should be awarded to the top teams at the beginning of the tournament. That said, I'm also not a fan of reseeding, so if the bye is to come in the second round and #12 beat #1, then I say give the bye to #12 - they earned it.

But wouldn't that further diminish the regular season? One of the perks of being a #3 seed as opposed to a #4 seed would be to have a chance at that bye in the quarterfinals (or play-in game to semis, whatever you want to call it) if one of the top 2 seeds fall.

Of course, you could make a counter-argument that this makes the regular season more important, as only the #1 and #2 seeds (and of course the 11/12 seeds) have a chance at a bye in the quarterfinals.

Personally, I would tend to be in favor of re-seeding when there was an upset in the first round.

 

[ericredaxe]

This is basically what the WCHA does now, except it is played Thursday/Friday/Saturday.

Im not in favor of 3 nights at The Garden regardless of weather it is thurs fri sat or fri sat sun.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

But wouldn't that further diminish the regular season? One of the perks of being a #3 seed as opposed to a #4 seed would be to have a chance at that bye in the quarterfinals (or play-in game to semis, whatever you want to call it) if one of the top 2 seeds fall.

Of course, you could make a counter-argument that this makes the regular season more important, as only the #1 and #2 seeds (and of course the 11/12 seeds) have a chance at a bye in the quarterfinals.

Personally, I would tend to be in favor of re-seeding when there was an upset in the first round.

I believe in bracket integrity. If the #12 team is good enough for the tourney, then they should be rewarded for knocking off the #1 by taking their path. If you want to say that the higher-seeded team at the start of the playoffs hosts the game or series, I'm fine with that. #12 always plays on the road.

Diminishing the regular season? Taking the whole league to the post-season does that in spades. I hate it. It's so '90's - '00's grade-school parent thinking of every little Johnny deserves a trophy. BS. Does everybody who shows up at work get a promotion? No. They earn it. In my opinion, if you want to play in the post-season, play well enough in the regular season to deserve it. After about a thousand regular season games in college hockey during the year, how many teams will be eliminated from the chance to be the National Champion? None. Not a single one. Every little snot-nosed Johnny gets to play in their league championship for a chance at an auto-bid.

 

[jjmc85]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

^Alabama-Huntsville says hello.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I believe in bracket integrity. If the #12 team is good enough for the tourney, then they should be rewarded for knocking off the #1 by taking their path. If you want to say that the higher-seeded team at the start of the playoffs hosts the game or series, I'm fine with that. #12 always plays on the road.

So, you believe in bracket integrity and support a system that could lead to the #12 vs #9 teams in one semifinal, while the other semifinal features the #2 vs #3 teams?

Diminishing the regular season? Taking the whole league to the post-season does that in spades. I hate it. It's so '90's - '00's grade-school parent thinking of every little Johnny deserves a trophy. BS. Does everybody who shows up at work get a promotion? No. They earn it. In my opinion, if you want to play in the post-season, play well enough in the regular season to deserve it. After about a thousand regular season games in college hockey during the year, how many teams will be eliminated from the chance to be the National Champion? None. Not a single one. Every little snot-nosed Johnny gets to play in their league championship for a chance at an auto-bid.

I was posing my question within the confines of the hypothetical that you proposed (i.e. everyone makes the conference tournament). If you want to see my counter-arguments to your arguments, read back a few pages (if you haven't done so already). No need to continue re-hashing the same stuff over and over.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

Im not in favor of 3 nights at The Garden regardless of weather it is thurs fri sat or fri sat sun.

Understandable. I love the WCHA's Thursday/Friday/Saturday format, but it does depend on matchups. If you have CC against Anchorage on a Thursday, the atmosphere is not the best. However, if you have North Dakota vs. SCSU, that is another story. Perhaps I need to keep in mind that the WCHA Final Five in St. Paul would struggle to be replicated elsewhere (including the new B1G and NCHC tournaments in the Twin Cities).

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

Understandable. I love the WCHA's Thursday/Friday/Saturday format, but it does depend on matchups. If you have CC against Anchorage on a Thursday, the atmosphere is not the best. However, if you have North Dakota vs. SCSU, that is another story. Perhaps I need to keep in mind that the WCHA Final Five in St. Paul would struggle to be replicated elsewhere (including the new B1G and NCHC tournaments in the Twin Cities).

I'm not against more hockey, but I question how it would work out 3 nights in a row. I'm local and I'd be hard pressed to trek into the Garden 3 times. Both time and cost would be a consideration. Hockey East semis and finals tickets are not cheap, so I'm not sure how attendance would be. For the schools a bit further out (Maine, UVM) it is a good chance to come into the city, spend the weekend etc... will those fans want to spend money for an extra night at a Boston hotel? Then what if your team does not advance... now you have tickets two 2 more nights without your team involved.

Just my opinion, but I think the events at The Garden have to be a 2 night affair...

 

[JohnsonsJerseys]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I realize I'm late to this thread, but some after reading three pages of posts relating to the HORROR of letting everyone into the playoffs many of you need to get a grip. Yes, this may largely be about league revenue - but what isn't about money now-a-days. Take your heads out of the sand and look at the big picture.

Posters saying the regular season is meaningless and nothing to play for... you don't think teams want a first round bye and save themselves from an additional 2 or 3 games when everyone is banged up?

The top teams should be loving this because now they don't have the risk of getting knocked off by the 7th or 8th place team. The bottom teams should be loving this because now everyone gets a chance to prove them can string together 5-6 good games and get to the NCAA tourney. Just look at NCAA basketball - do you really think the teams ranked 20-66 have ANY chance of winning the NCAA tourney? No, but we let them play anyway because it's good drama.

The teams who should be worried are those who are top seeds for the opening weekend and might get knocked off by #11 or #12. Well guess what, regardless of your regular season record if you can't beat the #11 or #12 team 2 out of 3, maybe YOUR team shouldn't be playing for the conference championship either...

You need to win the games you are supposed to win. If you can't then it doesn't matter who you lose to, you deserve to stay home.
Ryan J

 

[J.D.]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I realize I'm late to this thread, but some after reading three pages of posts relating to the HORROR of letting everyone into the playoffs many of you need to get a grip.

So the people who don't want to see Hockey East change the playoff format it's had for years need to "get a grip"? That doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing to get a grip on here no matter what side of the argument you're on.

Posters saying the regular season is meaningless and nothing to play for... you don't think teams want a first round bye and save themselves from an additional 2 or 3 games when everyone is banged up?

The top teams should be loving this because now they don't have the risk of getting knocked off by the 7th or 8th place team. The bottom teams should be loving this because now everyone gets a chance to prove them can string together 5-6 good games and get to the NCAA tourney. Just look at NCAA basketball - do you really think the teams ranked 20-66 have ANY chance of winning the NCAA tourney? No, but we let them play anyway because it's good drama.

The teams who should be worried are those who are top seeds for the opening weekend and might get knocked off by #11 or #12. Well guess what, regardless of your regular season record if you can't beat the #11 or #12 team 2 out of 3, maybe YOUR team shouldn't be playing for the conference championship either...

There was more than enough excitement at the end of the HE regular season between teams fighting for home ice and teams fighting just to make the playoffs. The added component of having teams fight for that first round bye will simply replace the component of teams fighting to make the playoffs. To me, there's more excitement with the format of having teams fight for home ice in the QFs and having teams fight just to make the playoffs. Again, I ask, why should a terrible team like Vermont from last year be allowed to compete in the Hockey East playoffs? And what do you mean the top teams won't have the risk of being knocked off by the #7 or #8 team? If 6, 7 and 8 all win their first round series, it sets up a QF round that Hockey East already has in place. The difference with your NCAA basketball tourney analogy is that many of the teams in that range had a great regular season.

 

[SCSU Euro]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I'm not against more hockey, but I question how it would work out 3 nights in a row. I'm local and I'd be hard pressed to trek into the Garden 3 times. Both time and cost would be a consideration. Hockey East semis and finals tickets are not cheap, so I'm not sure how attendance would be. For the schools a bit further out (Maine, UVM) it is a good chance to come into the city, spend the weekend etc... will those fans want to spend money for an extra night at a Boston hotel? Then what if your team does not advance... now you have tickets two 2 more nights without your team involved.

Just my opinion, but I think the events at The Garden have to be a 2 night affair...

Maybe its difference of region. I know a lot of people that go even when months in advance they are almost positive their team won't make it. When your team gets knocked out it doesn't mean you don't go to the games, it means you can get even drunker because you don't need to pay AS much attention as if your team is playing for at title.

 

[chickod]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I'm local and I'd be hard pressed to trek into the Garden 3 times. ...I think the events at The Garden have to be a 2 night affair...

Agreed. It's different in the urban areas. Every school in Hockey East is within a 4-hour drive of the Garden (and only 2 of those schools are more than an hour away - Vermont and Maine). So most of us don't even miss a day of work because we just commute into the game. If you're North Dakota and you are playing in Detroit, you're going for the entire weekend anyway. But it's not like that here. If our school gets eliminated on Thursday, now we're stuck with two tickets for games that we are NOT going to go to. If you are there anyway, you'll go to the games. But we won't. That means that you won't get the advanced sale, because people will wait until the day of the game to decide whether or not they are going to go, because we don't have to commit in advance. Bottom line...multi-day tournaments in the East = less revenue.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

Agreed. It's different in the urban areas. Every school in Hockey East is within a 4-hour drive of the Garden (and only 2 of those schools are more than an hour away - Vermont and Maine). So most of us don't even miss a day of work because we just commute into the game. If you're North Dakota and you are playing in Detroit, you're going for the entire weekend anyway. But it's not like that here. If our school gets eliminated on Thursday, now we're stuck with two tickets for games that we are NOT going to go to. If you are there anyway, you'll go to the games. But we won't. That means that you won't get the advanced sale, because people will wait until the day of the game to decide whether or not they are going to go, because we don't have to commit in advance. Bottom line...multi-day tournaments in the East = less revenue.

Being local myself, under the current setup, i MIGHT go to the championship game on Sat night if my team is eliminated on Friday, just because its the championship game, maybe the atmosphere is good and maybe there isn't much else to do on a sat in March... but there is no way I'd go to two more nights if my team were eliminated on thrusday.

 

[chickod]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

we let them play anyway because it's good drama.

That makes a lot of sense.

In fact, why don't we only have the playoffs once every 50 years. We can seed the teams based on the cumulative records. This would allow for "adjustments" to compensate for a team's domination over a period of years, so at the end of the 50 years all the teams would be about "equal." SO, for example, BU at 1050-551 would be seeded, say, 2nd, and would play the #7 seed, Merrimack, with a 50-year aggregate record of 1031-570. Think of all the anticipation and drama! It would be like the Olympics. There would be sellouts all over and people would start applying for tickets after, say, 42 years to make sure they were able to be at the games.

After all, EVERY team deserves to be in the playoffs. In fact, everyone deserves everything. We can call it the "Premiere Union of Skating Socialist Yankees (*****)"

 

[Split-N]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

So the people who don't want to see Hockey East change the playoff format it's had for years need to "get a grip"? That doesn't make sense to me. There's nothing to get a grip on here no matter what side of the argument you're on...

Quoted for common sense! As I said in a post earlier in this thread, I never thought I'd see the day that fans of the three Boston schools would see eye-to-eye on anything, but the cheapening of the regular season seems to have done it. Bear in mind that my team has been on the outside looking in more often than I want to think about so if anybody should be in favor of the "everyone qualifies for the playoffs" mentality, it should be me. But I'm not. And I haven't seen any other Northeastern poster support it either.

If you guys out west are in favor of the functional equivalent of giving each league member a participation trophy, then have at it. And maybe hold hands and sing Kumbaya while you're at it. But the Hockey East playoff format isn't broken and doesn't need fixing (even though it has broken my heart far too many times).

Oh, and if I think I need more drama in my life, I'll pull up an old Sopranos episode.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

So, you believe in bracket integrity and support a system that could lead to the #12 vs #9 teams in one semifinal, while the other semifinal features the #2 vs #3 teams?

Yes.

I was posing my question within the confines of the hypothetical that you proposed (i.e. everyone makes the conference tournament). If you want to see my counter-arguments to your arguments, read back a few pages (if you haven't done so already). No need to continue re-hashing the same stuff over and over.

You mean this:?

My first (selfish) reason is that the top teams in Hockey East have always had the advantage of not having to get by the lower ranked teams in conference tournament play, and as a result have avoided the possibility of either 1)winning a meaningless (from the RPI/PWR standpoint) game/series or 2)losing a game (or two) that kills RPI/PWR numbers. For example, Denver nearly missed the NCAA Tournament this season having to play the #10 team in the WCHA (Had Wisconsin won game 3, DU would likely have missed the NCAA Tournament). Likewise, Minnesota gained absolutely nothing by sweeping Anchorage, but could have theoretically missed the NCAA's/received a significantly lower seed had they lost even just 1 game.

The other (more fundamental) reason is that I like Cinderella stories, and I think every team should at least have the chance to win their conference tournament. Typically the conference season in college hockey is too short to truly separate who the 8th and 9th place teams (or 10th/11th and so on), and I would not think it fair to allow the 8th placed team to participate and not the 9th placed team.

As for the getting with the times comment, it was merely in jest. There was certainly something unique and different about Hockey East's conference tournament format. I just simply agree with the changes that HE is making.

So because your team can get punched in the mouth you think it's a good idea for everybody?? That makes no sense. You think every team should at least have the chance to win their conference tournament? THEY DO!! All they have to do is play well enough in the regular season to deserve a playoff spot! Is it going to be tight between the last team to make it and the first to not make it? Yes, just like every tourney in the world. For the national tourney, is there much separating 14 from 15 from 16 from 17? No, so maybe we should bring them all. Let's 58 or 60 or however many teams we've got play in one ginormous tournament after the league tourneys. I mean, every team should at least have the chance to win their national tournament, to use your words, right?? Makes as much sense.

I realize I'm late to this thread, but some after reading three pages of posts relating to the HORROR of letting everyone into the playoffs many of you need to get a grip. Yes, this may largely be about league revenue - but what isn't about money now-a-days. Take your heads out of the sand and look at the big picture.

You're not listening. We are well aware that it is about the Benjamins, we don't have our heads in the sand. We just don't like it.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

For those interested in some recent historical perspective on who wins the league tourneys and how well the last-place team does:

For the four big leagues during the past 10 years (8 for the CCHA), the average seed of the tourney winners have been WCHA 3.2, CCHA 2.4, ECAC 2.2, and HE 1.6. During that time no team ranked 9 or below has won their tourney. Two teams ranked in the bottom half won - Michigan in 2010 and Duluth in 2009 (both ranked #7). Only two other teams ranked outside of the top four have won: Harvard (6) and Minnesota (5), both in 2004.

During that time in HE the worst-placed team (#8 since teams below 8 are not tourney-eligible) have won 5 games. One was in OT. Two series were won. In the ECAC, #12 has won 11 games, 4 in OT, and 3 series (one of which was a QF series). In the CCHA, #11 has won six games, 3 in OT, for 3 series, one of which was a QF series, all in the last two years. In the previous 6 years, #12 went winless. And in the vaunted, everybody-should-get-a-chance WCHA, #10 (#12 for the past two years) has won a grand total of 1 playoff game. One. In OT.

My point? Why bother bringing the bottom-feeders to the tourney? The only thing they bring is a couple dollars. For the Cinderella stories? There aren't any. There are a few short Cinderella chapters here and there, but no stories. People say there isn't much that separates the bottom teams from the mid-level teams, or the mid-level teams from the top teams. These results show otherwise. For these 38 league tourneys, a paltry four were won by a team outside the top 4.

In my opinion: have the top four teams play for the tourney title. Let the next four play so the tourney is two weekends, brings a very occasional Cinderella, and for a couple bucks. And give 9 and below a beautiful pink participation trophy and a new wide-screen to watch the games on. If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.

Edit: Let's not discriminate against the AHA. In the past five years, the average seed of the tourney winner is 1.6. The last-placed team has played nine games in those five years, winning one - a 12 vs. 9 battle in a one-game east-west divided first round play-in.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

The other (more fundamental) reason is that I like Cinderella stories, and I think every team should at least have the chance to win their conference tournament. Typically the conference season in college hockey is too short to truly separate who the 8th and 9th place teams (or 10th/11th and so on), and I would not think it fair to allow the 8th placed team to participate and not the 9th placed team.

I'm not picking on FS, it's just that he's left a paper trail.

How would you like this Cinderella story? UND is solidly ensconced in 15th place nationally, right behind #14, but well ahead of the #16 who is going to lose their slot to the AHA anyway. Then along comes this past year's Vermont team who, through luck, good bounces, and a fortuitous outbreak of the flu in Boston manages, somehow, to win the HE tourney. And goodbye, UND, hello UVM. Do you really believe that all of UND and half of the WCHA wouldn't lose their minds, saying a good-for-nothing team like UVM has no business playing in the tourney instead of UND? We'd need more straight jackets than Carter has liver pills.

And what about Huntsville? Are you willing to let them play in your league tourney, since every team should have that chance? Or since they don't have that chance, and we want to be fair and inclusive, maybe they should just get an invite to the national tourney. You know, so they don't feel left out.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: Hockey East to Expand Playoff Format

I get the feeling that everybody is slowly backing away, grabbing their phones. Not sure whether to run away or to stay. Getting ready to call the cops or videotape the meltdown.