Hockey East 2020-2021

[leswp1]

As for playing or not playing during this pandemic there has to be some kind of balance involved. It seems that most college sports have been doing just that, playing and cancelling or postponing when necessary. I understand the desire to stop any preventable deaths from Covid but people die because of the lockdowns too. Substance abuse, obesity and suicides are direct results of it. Poor health decisions are being made by delaying care that lead to deaths also. The number of Covid deaths is inflated as well due to declaring them Covid if anyone had a positive Covid test in the past 90 days even if they die for any other reason. The additional premium for hospitals if they declare Covid as cause of death also gives false numbers as some patients are called that just because they showed some symptoms but never tested positive. One thing that should be considered is prioritizing the vaccine when available for anyone that deals with college age or younger be they professors, coaches, teachers, or staff. Also the most vulnerable should get priority such as those in nursing homes and their caregivers. That way a huge portion of this country could return to normal opening up things for parents as well so they can go about life without needing to be caregivers all the time.

Absolutely correct- people are struggling with the restrictions- substance use, lack of medical follow up, and you forgot domestic violence. However these are things that are a byproduct of not being able to buckle down and work from a position of prevention. The stuff about false mislabeling of COVID is silliness which, if you had to live thru billing or declaring someone dead you would know.

net presence- thanks for saving me typing. Early on people wanted to support the illusion that things were normal. Unless you live under a rock you have figured out that things are not normal. People playing the game or supporting it are not just stats. They are real people. They have the potential to suffer real consequences that were not part of the job description when they or their families signed up. Before this they sacrificed family celebrations, milestones, holidays so others could go watch a game. They knew that going in. Expecting that to extend to putting their personal health and safety and that of their families is just plain wrong. (not to mention expecting players to risk long term consequences that may end promising careers). This isn't just about the few people on the ice. Many of the people involved have young families or others needing care. It takes multi-generational cooperation and considerable flexibility in the family to cover all the time they are gone. With the current disregard for safety these people cannot be involved without risk. Add to that they change of schedules with less than 24 hour notice. At this point if a family is capable they need to separate from the risk- which is $$ or pray really, really hard the wrong thing doesn't happen making everyone in the house take consequences.

There are some people who view athletes and the rest of the staff as an expendable resource who should participate because the person is entitled to entertainment or distraction. As far as I am concerned those people are either morally bankrupt or have not passed the developmental milestone of moral development allowing them to think of anyone but themselves.. Hopefully this little exchange has made at least one person realize there is way more at stake than being entertained.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Jesus ********** Christ Chuck...seriously? Where is the outcry about stopping all college sports due to a spate of head and knee injuries...?!? Please provide specific examples when one player's ACL tear was directly responsible for a 60 plus year old grandmother with diabetes to pass away. Or multiple different deaths for that matter.

The proverbial "grandmother with diabetes" shouldn't be going to games, she's the one who should be sheltered in place, for her own protection. If she opts against those protections, then it's on her. I'm almost at that age group, and I would never ever expect younger healthier folks with their lives to live, to put everything on hold for folks like me. Nanny state much?!?

And, how do you know that deep down inside Jerry is truly OK with playing? You sitting in his basement with him discussing it? My guess is not. You do realize that leaders in various organizations often say things they know aren't true to maintain morale for their "troops" right? And no, Jerry isn't an expert in contagious viral diseases that I'm aware of. At least, he hasn't mentioned it the two times I had beers with him and his staff... rolls eyes...

OK, so I guess you DO know better than Jerry York then. Jerry could have stepped out front and said "we're not doing this" but he hasn't, so I think most rational adults would logically conclude that he is in favor. He has assistants and could take a season off if he wanted to. No one would blame him, his goodwill at BC is indefinite and inexhaustible (and deservedly so). The only thing that could ever even begin to mar his legacy would be to subject his players to some illness that threatened their lives and/or long-term health. The "safe" call for someone with Coach York's standing would be to stand down. But he's doing the exact opposite. And you seem to be scolding him and questioning his honesty, and his motives.

Can you even begin to appreciate why lots of mature responsible adults detest those who think like you? Virtue signaling and telling everyone else how you know better?!?

Today you've accused Jerry York of being selfish and disingenuous. Let that sink in ...

 

[J.D.]

Chuck, how dare you question him. He's had beers with Coach York on multiple occasions! And by that he probably means he was at the same bar/restaurant as York a couple times.

I completely agree on York though. He's in his 70s. He's married. He wears a mask and doesn't strike me as someone who will brazenly stroll in to his Watertown dunkies with his mask hanging down under his chin. He gets tested. He is doing everything asked of him to try and move forward. But that makes him a selfish a-hole. It's infuriating.

 

[J.D.]

And this is coming from someone who has taken COVID very seriously. I haven't eaten at any restaurants since this all started. I wear my mask everywhere. My wife has been over the top of not letting my kids interact with family. I avoid large gatherings. You know, gatherings like protests and Biden celebrations where people are not being routinely tested. But because i am ok with sports trying to proceed with regular testing and precautions i am also a selfish a-hole. COVID has been depressing and the holiday season is notoriously depressing for many, many people. But if you have the audacity to take pleasure in a hockey game being played in an empty arena between two teams who are routinely tested? That makes you a terrible person and you can rot in hell.

 

[jjmc85]

Last night after the BC-UMass game I watched the entire Netflix miniseries on the Challenger explosion. Reading the back and forth reminds me a lot about the back and forth that reportedly happened the night before the launch about the saftey of the o-rings in freezing temperatures. Something I remember one of the engineers who claimed to be against the launch said is that it seemed like his supervisors went from a “we have to prove it is safe to launch” mentality to a “you have to prove to us it isn’t safe to launch” mentality and since they had never launched when it was that cold, they couldn’t prove it was unsafe. Everyone knows what happened, and it was catastrophic. It was very interesting to me to hear about all the factors-outside of the orings that I’ve heard about my whole life-that went into making that decision. I think it would be a good miniseries for any decision maker to watch.

BC football comes up a lot in this and the Ivy League thread, and the same questions get asked a lot (including by myself), and the same answers get given. If I have time later today I’ll try to take a look at what percent of football teams have had no problems that played verse percent that haven’t had problems. If anyone has that data already, or a link to it, I’d be interested to check it out. It would also be interesting if anyone has connections to the BC football team if they could get an answer from their perspective about what BC football is doing, if anything, that has helped them be so successful that other teams aren’t doing.

To bring it back to the Challenger analogy: has BC football figured out the “oring” issue, or have they just always had “warm weather”? The answer to that should be of utmost importance to school presidents, conference commissioners, and athletic departments IMO. I hope it is.

 

[leswp1]

And this is coming from someone who has taken COVID very seriously. I haven't eaten at any restaurants since this all started. I wear my mask everywhere. My wife has been over the top of not letting my kids interact with family. I avoid large gatherings. You know, gatherings like protests and Biden celebrations where people are not being routinely tested. But because i am ok with sports trying to proceed with regular testing and precautions i am also a selfish a-hole. COVID has been depressing and the holiday season is notoriously depressing for many, many people. But if you have the audacity to take pleasure in a hockey game being played in an empty arena between two teams who are routinely tested? That makes you a terrible person and you can rot in hell.

Except, as the Gov and MULTIPLE Medical professionals, DPH, infectious disease specialists and epidemiologist all are saying- testing is NOT a way to know you are safe. THis is why there has been a constant barrage of info telling people testing to travel is useless. You test negative as you are ramping up. This is why there are constant issues with the NFL (tests daily), BB, Ftbl. NHL put everyone in a strict bubble. No in and out. If you left you needed to start the process to be cleared again. It worked. This is not what is happening now. If they were in a strict bubble- go for it. If not there is absolutely no use to testing only 3 times a week. There is no evidence it does anything helpful except tag who is currently positive. With the amount of community penetration of disease at this point it is useless as a prevention tool. It is an identification tool that is not perfected. (And testing varies from school to school as far as what test is being used, what protocol is being used)

 

[J.D.]

It's better than doing nothing. And I am fine with it over not even trying to play while we wait for a vaccine. There is no timeline for when everyone will be vaccinated. Let's just cancel next season as well to provide ample time for vaccination. I really do wonder if that's the only thing that will appease the sanctimonious crowd.

 

[brassbonanza]

Except, as the Gov and MULTIPLE Medical professionals, DPH, infectious disease specialists and epidemiologist all are saying- testing is NOT a way to know you are safe. THis is why there has been a constant barrage of info telling people testing to travel is useless. You test negative as you are ramping up. This is why there are constant issues with the NFL (tests daily), BB, Ftbl. NHL put everyone in a strict bubble. No in and out. If you left you needed to start the process to be cleared again. It worked. This is not what is happening now. If they were in a strict bubble- go for it. If not there is absolutely no use to testing only 3 times a week. There is no evidence it does anything helpful except tag who is currently positive. With the amount of community penetration of disease at this point it is useless as a prevention tool. It is an identification tool that is not perfected. (And testing varies from school to school as far as what test is being used, what protocol is being used)

Incorrect. As those same folks have said, constant surveillance testing - which some schools are doing - IS a way to establish a reasonable level of certainty that a large group of people are safe.

The line you quote is in reference to people getting a single test 5 days before Thanksgiving dinner then thinking they're 100% safe to go to a mask-less dinner with their grandparents. It's not in reference to a group who's all tested three times per week.

 

[net presence]

As for playing or not playing during this pandemic there has to be some kind of balance involved. It seems that most college sports have been doing just that, playing and cancelling or postponing when necessary. I understand the desire to stop any preventable deaths from Covid but people die because of the lockdowns too. Substance abuse, obesity and suicides are direct results of it. Poor health decisions are being made by delaying care that lead to deaths also. The number of Covid deaths is inflated as well due to declaring them Covid if anyone had a positive Covid test in the past 90 days even if they die for any other reason. The additional premium for hospitals if they declare Covid as cause of death also gives false numbers as some patients are called that just because they showed some symptoms but never tested positive. One thing that should be considered is prioritizing the vaccine when available for anyone that deals with college age or younger be they professors, coaches, teachers, or staff. Also the most vulnerable should get priority such as those in nursing homes and their caregivers. That way a huge portion of this country could return to normal opening up things for parents as well so they can go about life without needing to be caregivers all the time.

First, literally every legitimate expert on this virus says we are vastly UNDERCOUNTING Covid deaths. So, you're completely wrong there. As you also are on your right-wing (Trump) talking point about hospitals intentionally labeling non-Covid deaths as Covid because they "make more money" from that. But, les already explained that to you.

 

[The Zlax45]

Incorrect. As those same folks have said, constant surveillance testing - which some schools are doing - IS a way to establish a reasonable level of certainty that a large group of people are safe.

The line you quote is in reference to people getting a single test 5 days before Thanksgiving dinner then thinking they're 100% safe to go to a mask-less dinner with their grandparents. It's not in reference to a group who's all tested three times per week.

There isn't even a mask policy for players in Hockey East. I don't think there has been a men's team that has been masked up in Hockey East but on the women's side though at least PC, Holy Cross, UConn, and Maine have been masked up. BC women have not been.

Why wasn't this included in the Hockey East return to play plans?

 

[J.D.]

Because playing hockey with a mask on is stupid. That's why.

 

[Wayuphere]

Playing hockey in a pandemic is stupid also.

 

[net presence]

The proverbial "grandmother with diabetes" shouldn't be going to games, she's the one who should be sheltered in place, for her own protection. If she opts against those protections, then it's on her. I'm almost at that age group, and I would never ever expect younger healthier folks with their lives to live, to put everything on hold for folks like me. Nanny state much?!?



OK, so I guess you DO know better than Jerry York then. Jerry could have stepped out front and said "we're not doing this" but he hasn't, so I think most rational adults would logically conclude that he is in favor. He has assistants and could take a season off if he wanted to. No one would blame him, his goodwill at BC is indefinite and inexhaustible (and deservedly so). The only thing that could ever even begin to mar his legacy would be to subject his players to some illness that threatened their lives and/or long-term health. The "safe" call for someone with Coach York's standing would be to stand down. But he's doing the exact opposite. And you seem to be scolding him and questioning his honesty, and his motives.

Can you even begin to appreciate why lots of mature responsible adults detest those who think like you? Virtue signaling and telling everyone else how you know better?!?

Today you've accused Jerry York of being selfish and disingenuous. Let that sink in ...

First, to J.D... no, I was actually sitting with Jerry and his staff, not "just in the same bar". I've been deeply involved with the game at the Junior A level and above for 30 years now and, everywhere in this country it's played. So, I've had the distinct honor of developing relationships with most of the influential people in our game. But, it's obviously your choice to believe that or not.

Chuck, no, I haven't "accused" Jerry of anything. I'm simply suggesting a possible alternative to your narrative. You're correct in that he could certainly take the season off if he felt that was best for him and his family. Maybe he just feels that strongly that, if they're going to try to play and, as the leader of that organization, he needs to be out front.

Far more importantly, you seem to be confused with your own logic...On one hand, you argue against stay at home orders due to the "collateral" damage that incurs in terms of higher mental health issues, delay medical exams/procedures, increased drug/alcohol abuse, and physical abuse and, on the other you're saying "young people" shouldn't have to "sacrifice" (I mean, we all know asking 18-25 yr olds to possibly delay or even miss a sports season due to a once in a hundred year pandemic is a major sacrifice, just like storming the beaches of Normandy or having to chase the the Japanese off of Iwo Jima, or slogging thru the jungles of Vietnam) in order to keep more vulnerable people safer. So, "those people" should "shelter up" and not go anywhere they might expose themselves, thus increasing their risk to the issues you say should prevent us from enacting lockdowns. Talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth. You go girl....

 

[Drew S.]

Appreciate the rational take. I am sure precautions are in place but in the end you can't monitor their activities 24/7. Of however many positive tests Hockey East has had so far, who really knows how those individuals got it. For BC football, have they been lucky? Maybe. But it also points to players taking it seriously and doing what is needed to play football. For college age kids to have that discipline, they deserve a lot of credit.

Building off this, football has a lot more players than hockey. So in theory you have a better chance of getting through a hockey season relatively unscathed. This idea that they shouldn't at least try to play is crazy to me though. We already had the end of last year called off and people now want the entire season scrapped without attempting to play. How is anyone supposed to know when all these players will be vaccinated? Is that what people want to wait for? Enough.

The problem I see is Hockey East has tried to play and failed miserably. This has been the most shambolic process imaginable. How many days was it from when the season got announced to Vermont pulled out? There has been zero leadership or communication from Metcalf which drives me crazy.

The most disappointing bit of this for me is Hockey East had an unbelievable opportunity in November and December to play with hardly any other sports going on which they have completely wasted. Maybe the NHL won’t play and they’ll get a break there but I’d be surprised if that happens.

Beyond that what are the teams even playing for? A hockey east championship? An NCAA championship? I get you need to build in some flexibility but it seems like they are just making it up as they go along which is ridiculous when they had eight months to plan.

Maybe they’ll get their act together eventually but time is running out and the overall Covid situation is going the wrong way. I desperately want to see a season be played but it seems like everyone from Metcalf through the players has completely bottled it so far.

 

[J.D.]

So when is it ok to play? When is there no longer a pandemic? When every player is vaccinated? As I said, let's just go ahead and cancel next season too. We can all just shelter in place until there are no COVID cases and everyone is vaccinated. Does that signal the end of the pandemic? Who gets to decide when it's over?

 

[net presence]

So when is it ok to play? When is there no longer a pandemic? When every player is vaccinated? As I said, let's just go ahead and cancel next season too. We can all just shelter in place until there are no COVID cases and everyone is vaccinated. Does that signal the end of the pandemic? Who gets to decide when it's over?

No offense J.D. but, when you and others make statements like, "let's go ahead and cancel next season too", or "we can't stay locked down forever" (obviously, you haven't said that specific statement in this discussion that I'm aware of but, it's been stated by many for the last 6 months) you really lose credibility. Not a single expert on the virus, and specifically vaccines, is saying we won't have a widely distributed vaccine by mid-summer at the latest. So no, we don't have to cancel next season. The Minnesota Department of Health is estimating that for every youth and high school athlete that tests positive, they could be responsible for as many as 70 total secondary infections IF community spread is as pervasive as it currently is. With 10 percent of those infected ultimately needing at least hospitalization, that's 7 of those for every athlete that infects at least 2 or 3 others initially.

In Minnesota the health department has traced 280 some infections directly to sports activity. Meaning, the athlete was infected while in/at the facility they were playing. AND...the MDH is saying that since 40% are asymptomatic, their current count is vastly (their word, not mine) undercounted. And yes, IF we were really doing this the "right way", there wouldn't be any sports until we had a vaccine. Would my opinion change on that if we knew we wouldn't have a vaccine for at least another year or two? It probably would because then the "risk/benefit analysis" would change considerably in regards to the negative effects on both kids and society as a whole. But to "sacrifice" for one calendar year isn't that much to ask for us as a society. I respect your right to disagree. However, as a certain VP said recently in a debate, although you (and Chuck and Jeb and others) are entitled to your own opinion, you aren't entitled to your own facts.

 

[J.D.]

Considering I have never claimed to know when all these players will be vaccinated, that's why I asked the question. I was hoping a real intellectual like yourself would inform us all when it's acceptable to play hockey since it's not ok to play now in an empty arena while being regularly tested.

 

[Drew S.]

So when is it ok to play? When is there no longer a pandemic? When every player is vaccinated? As I said, let's just go ahead and cancel next season too. We can all just shelter in place until there are no COVID cases and everyone is vaccinated. Does that signal the end of the pandemic? Who gets to decide when it's over?

If this was directed at me my answer was pretty clear in my last post; when the conference, schools, and players get their act together. Unfortunately that hasn’t happened yet and it’s bitterly disappointing.

 

[J.D.]

Not you Drew, sorry about that. The guy who said playing hockey *shudders* during a pandemic is stupid.

 

[BC/HE]

First, literally every legitimate expert on this virus says we are vastly UNDERCOUNTING Covid deaths. So, you're completely wrong there. As you also are on your right-wing (Trump) talking point about hospitals intentionally labeling non-Covid deaths as Covid because they "make more money" from that. But, les already explained that to you.

You've lost credibility as soon as you said 'legitimate.' For every expert that says one thing there is another expert who refutes it. My family has seen firsthand the listing of a Covid death that most likely wasn't one and the health care workers in my family have seen the labeling of Covid deaths because of some symptoms not results. Those are not talking points. If anyone has a political agenda here it is you. My wife and I have worked through the entire pandemic out in the public and in her case face to face with actual Covid patients some of whom died. A complete lockdown is just as crazy as no restrictions at all. We need a balance here and if you take away everyone's livelihood there will be nothing left to go back to for many.